The point is spinners in 80s were nothing compared to 90s and 00s. Warne,murali,kumble,saqlain.vettori are all excellent spin bowlers.His performance against average spinners in 80s suggest that he was another duminy in making in modern era.
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Richards v Tendulkar - ODIs
- Thread starter Pratters
- Start date
bagapath
International Captain
4th ODI: India v West Indies at Jamshedpur, Dec 7, 1983 | Cricket Scorecard | Cricinfo.com
and this was way back in 1983!
and this was way back in 1983!
And where was warne ,kumble or Murali in that match.From scorecard it is clear he scored heavily against Shastri and M Amarnath. Not a big deal.
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bagapath
International Captain
satyam. it was not meant to demonstrate viv's dominance against great spinners. merely to show he was capable of pushing his team to 333 in in 45 overs in an era when 250 in 50 overs was a winning score most of the time. I voted for sachin in this poll merely for his consistent dominance over world cricket for a long time. but never ever had a doubt viv could be more devastating than any batsman in history on his day - against pace or spin.
Migara
International Coach
The bowling is undoubtedly weak. The bowler with real class Kapil only went for 44 off 9 while picking 3 wickets. I fail to notice any other bowler with real class in that match. If Kapil had a Kumble in that match, the stats would have looked very different. IVARs ability to punish even the best of seamers is very appreciated fact. But spinners, great and Richards do not positively correlate in one sentence.
bagapath
International Captain
but migara... scoring 333 in 45 overs back in 1983 is like scoring 500 in 50 overs these days. that bowling attack, however ****ty it was, was the one that won the worldcup for india a few months before that game. the same windies team could not chase 183 on that day. my point is.... viv played a once in a life time kind of knock ... but because the game was not a WC game or that it was not part of an exciting series (india got drubbed 5-0) it is forgotten now. but when it was played, no bowler in the world wanted to bowl to him. and no spinner alive thought he had richards' number. remember, early in his test career, viv played chandra, bedi, prasanna and underwood pretty well. there is no reason he would not have been as successfull against warne and murali as a lara or tendulkar.
Migara
International Coach
He played them well on West Indian tracks which were not conducive to spin. But against Chandra, in India, it was a monumental struggle for Viv. Averages 23 IIRC when Chandra played in India.
Murali, Warne, Kumble, and Saqlain are much more adapted to nip out rampaging batsmen than spinners of earlier era. In test matches I would give Viv a big chance to succeed because of time on hand, but in ODIs, not that much. There was a time that no batsman in the world could get on top of Saqlain. These bowlers are too much classier to be intimidated or get bashed badly.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
He averaged 93 against attacks with Chandra at his home. That's a bit better than playing him "well". It does contrast with averaging 23 in India but I think you're seeing a bit too much into it. The pitches aren't going to affect Chandra that much to let Richards dominate him so much away from home. Also, the series against Chandra, where he did poorly in India, were at the very beginning of his career. Averages 55 against Chandra overall.
Anyway, I would go with how he did generally against spinners. Take Brian Lara. His record vs. Vettori is pretty bad. Averages in the low 30s and taken 3 times in 12 innings (vs 4 in 14 Viv/Chandra). Do we conclude he can't play spin well?
Anyway, I would go with how he did generally against spinners. Take Brian Lara. His record vs. Vettori is pretty bad. Averages in the low 30s and taken 3 times in 12 innings (vs 4 in 14 Viv/Chandra). Do we conclude he can't play spin well?
Migara
International Coach
Not the same scenario though. Vettori is not the best spinner of his generation, and Lara played best of his generation well. But in IVARs case, Chandra was THE BEST spinner of the era. And he struggled against the BEST spinner when conditions are helpful. But spinners of current generation are class above Chandra. So expect more trouble to batsmen.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Lara has a pretty crap record against one of the most ordinary spinners of the last couple decades yet in that time also beat the daylights out of the two best of all time. It shows the fallacy of making generalisations.
Even when you look at Richards' record in matches against Chandra, he gets better as he plays him and in the end averaged 93 against Chandra in the 4 match series in the WIndies.
The 4 matches he had played earlier (he played 8 in total against chandra) was his debut Test series. And in the match that Chandra missed (I don't know the reason, I just know he missed it) he scored 192* against the rest of India's spin attack which had bowlers who were very good (Bedi, Prasanna).
IMO, you're making much too much of too little.
Sanz
Hall of Fame Member
Hey Bagapath,
Just wanted to add, that Keenan ground then was everything that today's pitches are. smaller ground, flattest of the flat track. While Viv's inning was great, people in my town still talk about the 100 Greenidge made and some of the sixes he hit. Being the local boy, I distinctly remember how far some Greenidge sixes went on that morning.
Just one of the most breath taking attacking batting of all time.
Migara
International Coach
Vettori, ordinary spinner in ODIs? whew! That's news for me.
Uppercut
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He's definitely not ordinary, but he's not a big wicket-taker at all. You certainly wouldn't expect him to have the wood on Brian Lara in any case.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Depends who you compare him to really. Uppercut has the idea though.
FTR, I was talking about Tests.
Migara
International Coach
That is the very fact I wanted to keep Chandra out of it. Except for Qadir, Viv never played a decent ODI spinner, at least with Vettori's quality.
There's no questions that IVAR has a superior record, by comparing standardized stats, but that too nothing as great as what is made up of. IVARs ability against spin is his biggest critic. IMO he is far behind SRT when it comes to playing spin. SRT dominated best of the spinners, perhaps except Murali post 2000. The spinners that IVAR dominated would have got butchered by today's batsmen, and due to flatter tracks.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Big wicket taker when batsman go after him for the most part.
He did only dismiss Lara once in 15 meetings though (though Lara may not have always batted against Vettori in that time 1 in 15 matches is still hardly the wood on anyone)
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
Dismissed him 3/12 innings in Tests compared to Chandra dismissing Viv in 4/14.
My point was, if you looked at Lara's record against Vettori you'd never guess him to pummel Murali or Warne had he not done it. Migara's argument is based on 4 away tests in Viv's debut series against Chandra.
Athlai
Not Terrible
Lara 24 (20) c Nash b Vettori (WI 336-4)
Lara 67 (166) b Vettori (WI 129-4 following NZ 518-9d, WI to be 179 ao)
Lara 28 (74) v Vettori (WI 65-2 on a raging turner WI to be 107 ao Vettori to get 4-27)
Lara got out in that first dismissal attacking Vettori, the second was when WI were in dire straights and he'd been batting for a long long time and the third when conditions suited spin. Don't really see too much evidence of Vettori having been that effective against Lara.
Ikki
Hall of Fame Member
I don't think Vettori was overly effective. I think Lara was nowhere near as ruthless, however. The point was, even in comparison, Viv got out about the same proportion of times against Chandra, yet averages much higher (55) in attacks with him and is being classed as some sort of failure. Lara didn't average anywhere near that high in attacks against Vettori with about the same proportion of wickets being taken by the bowler.
Ironically, if you look at Lara's record against attacks with other spinners not named Warne or Murali it's not that great. Against Harbhajan and Kumble I believe he never really got on top. Played Saqlain and was out in both innings for cheap scores. Averages 26 in 7 matches against Giles who got him 3 times. For someone who is talked about as the greatest player of spin...well.
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