Ranking the candidates for the second best batsman after the Don. 25 contenders

[weldone]

This is such a **** attitude towards someone trying to create discussion around a topic.

Nah that was not pointed towards mr_mister - it was pointed to the whole group making the decisions

As mr_mister said it is not a test-only ranking - and if so, Barry has a decent shout of being considered the 2nd best after Bradman imo. Many who have played with or against him say he's the best they've played with or against. He dominated all world-class bowlers, and had an amazing first-class and WSC record.

 

[jimmy101]

Hobbs
Pollock
Tendulkar
Sobers
Headley
Lara
Viv Richards
Hammond
Hutton
Trumper
Barry Richards
Sutcliffe
Gavaskar
Chappell
Weekes
Kallis
Sangakkara
Ponting
Border
Miandad
Dravid
Grace
Ranji
Walcott
Waugh

 

[Flametree]

This is impossible.... do you consider peak Ponting, or his whole career?

Gone off tests only apart from Barry Richards, who was my one of my Dad's favourite players (my Dad watched a lot of county cricket in the 60's and 70's), hence the pre WW1 options are down the bottom of the list. Would have had Merchant, Barrington, Younis Khan and Boycott in in the list...

Jack Hobbs
Gary Sobers
George Headley
Len Hutton
Viv Richards
Greg Chappell
Wally Hammond
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Herb Sutcliffe
Sunil Gavaskar
Barry Richards
Everton Weekes
Graeme Pollock
Kumar Sangakkarra
Clyde Walcott
Ricky Ponting
Allan Border
Steve Waugh
Jacques Kallis
Rahul Dravid
Javed Miandad
Victor Trumper
KS Ranji
WG Grace

 

[oblongballs]

Younis Khan, maybe? Massively underrated IMO.

But yeah, my point is basically that current players should simply be excluded on the basis that it isn't really fair to include them against players who have had a full career arc, including the usual late career decline, particularly when the current players are currently in career-best form with no guarantee that it'll continue over another 50 Tests.

50 tests is a lot of matches which is why I've included Kohli.

No head to head battles. I'm recreating the thread where everyone submitted a 1-18 ranking of 18 all-rounders I threw up, then I post the results in a countdown thread

More interesting than a head to head battle

Does it count how they are ranked? Because I have not ranked them in order

 

[Lillian Thomson]

The snag with 25 for me is that apart the first few of Richards V, Richards B, Sobers, Tendulkar and Lara, the rest would probably be in a different order every day and I probably wouldn't even remember the order I put them in.

 

[mr_mister]

50 tests is a lot of matches which is why I've included Kohli.



Does it count how they are ranked? Because I have not ranked them in order

You posted a random list of 25 bats you rate highly on page 1... I'm only tallying up the votes who used the 25 batsmen in the first post. And yes it has to be in order

 

[mr_mister]

The snag with 25 for me is that apart the first few of Richards V, Richards B, Sobers, Tendulkar and Lara, the rest would probably be in a different order every day and I probably wouldn't even remember the order I put them in.

all i can say is think long and hard about it then ha. but nah i completely get what you mean, it's like trying to rank your top 10 favourite movies in order, not easy

 

[weldone]

2. Sachin Tendulkar
3. Garry Sobers
4. Barry Richards
5. Viv Richards
6. Jack Hobbs
7. George Headley
8. Brian Lara
9. Len Hutton
10. Graeme Pollock
11. Everton Weekes
12. Clyde Walcott
13. Wally Hammond
14. Javed Miandad
15. Allan Border
16. Ricky Ponting
17. Sunil Gavaskar
18. Greg Chappell
19. Rahul Dravid
20. WG Grace
21. Herbert Sutcliffe
22. Steve Waugh
23. Jacques Kallis
24. Kumar Sangakkara
25. KS Ranji
26. Victor Trumper

 

[ankitj]

1. Sachin Tendulkar
2. Gary Sobers
3. Viv Richards
4. Jack Hobbs
5. WG Grace
6. Graeme Pollock
7. Brian Lara
8. Wally Hammond
9. George Headley
10. Len Hutton
11. Greg Chappell
12. Sunil Gavaskar
13. Barry Richards
14. Ricky Ponting
15. Kumar Sangakkarra
16. Jacques Kallis
17. Allan Border
18. Steve Waugh
19. Rahul Dravid
20. Herb Sutcliffe
21. Clyde Walcott
22. Everton Weekes
23. Javed Miandad
24. KS Ranji
25. Victor Trumper

 

[Red]

Such a difficult exercise. I note a couple of people including Trumper at the bottom of their lists.

In his day he was renowned for his ability on terrible wickets. Not sure entirely how to rank him but it's not inconceivable to put him a hell of a lot higher. Not being critical, just an observation.

We all know of Bradman's amazing Test average, 99.94, and alongside Bradman's figures Trumper's statistics pale into seeming insignificance. In 48 Test matches Trumper scored 3163 runs at an average of 39.04. He hit eight centuries, with a high of 214 not out against South Africa at the Adelaide Oval in 1910-11, and 13 half-centuries. The figures don't reflect Trumper's mastery of batting on uncovered wickets which were laid bare to rain, then a searing sun. When those steamy, muddy surfaces started to dry out they were called "sticky dogs".

Bad pitches were a challenge and a joy to Trumper. In January 1904 he scored 74 out of Australia's total of 122 against the wiles of Wilfred Rhodes and George Hirst on such a sticky dog. Rain and sun had taken its toll on that MCG wicket. Rhodes took a match haul of 15 for 124, but it was Trumper's genius with the bat on that wicket that enthralled everyone.

Bradman never really understood Trumper's genius. He would ask the likes of Alan Kippax and Arthur Mailey why they thought so highly of him. "How can you speak so glowingly of a batsman who averaged 39?"

Cardus saw both Trumper and Bradman at their best, but he maintained that you could not compare a batsman or a bowler purely on figures alone. Perhaps it was Cardus who could have best answered Bradman's question. "I am concerned with Trumper as an artist, not as a scorer of match-winning runs," he wrote. "You will no more get an idea of the quality of Trumper's batsmanship by adding up his runs than you will get an idea of the quality of Shelley's poetry by adding up the number of lines written by Shelley."

Ashley Mallett on Victor Trumper's death | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[AndrewB]

WG Grace
Jack Hobbs
Gary Sobers
Len Hutton
Sachin Tendulkar
Viv Richards
Brian Lara
Wally Hammond
Barry Richards
George Headley
Ricky Ponting
Graeme Pollock
KS Ranjitsinhji
Sunil Gavaskar
Kumar Sangakkara
Greg Chappell
Victor Trumper
Clyde Walcott
Jacques Kallis
Herbert Sutcliffe
Allan Border
Everton Weekes
Javed Miandad
Steve Waugh
Rahul Dravid

 

[Zinzan]

Gary Sobers
Wally Hammond
Jack Hobbs
Graeme Pollock
Viv Richards
Brian Lara
George Headley
Len Hutton
Herb Sutcliffe
WG Grace
Sachin Tendulkar
Ricky Ponting
Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Barry Richards
Kumar Sangakkarra
Javed Miandad
Jacques Kallis
Allan Border
Steve Waugh
Victor Trumper
Clyde Walcott
Everton Weekes
Rahul Dravid
KS Ranji

 

[randycricfreak]

Gary Sobers
Brian Lara
Kumar Sangakkarra
Wally Hammond
Jack Hobbs
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Jacques Kallis
Ricky Ponting
Greg Chappell
Sunil Gavaskar
Everton Weekes
Rahul Dravid
Javed Miandad
Allan Border
Steve Waugh
Len Hutton
Herb Sutcliffe
WG Grace
George Headley
Graeme Pollock
Victor Trumper
Clyde Walcott
Barry Richards
KS Ranji

 

[ankitj]

Such a difficult exercise. I note a couple of people including Trumper at the bottom of their lists.

In his day he was renowned for his ability on terrible wickets. Not sure entirely how to rank him but it's not inconceivable to put him a hell of a lot higher. Not being critical, just an observation.



Ashley Mallett on Victor Trumper's death | Cricket | ESPN Cricinfo

It's largely a 'don't know how to rate' vote. Also, statistically Trumper was surpassed by some of his contemporaries. Not just a bonafide great like Hobbs, but even Stanely Jackson did much better than Trumper. At least Bradman agrees with me

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah Hobbs is why I don't quite rate Trumper as high as the experts do. He played a chunk of his career during Trumper's time and statistically outstripped him to an enormous degree.

 

[mr_mister]

Clem Hill was neck a neck with him.


Stanley Jackson had an awesome little test record but his FC record is nothing special. Where as CB Fry is the inverse


It's tough to judge from these guys who played so few tests

 

[Flametree]

Yes that's my rationale for not rating Trumper the way some folk do. He played more tests pre-WW1 than most of the other top batsmen of the era, but even so, the likes of Hill, Bardsley and Ransford in his own side and Faulkner, Ranjit, and Gunn for others all averaged about the same or more in similar periods, while Hobbs far outscored him.

Given there are several very very good contenders but no outstanding ones, I think it's fine to put him in the picture for opening for an All-Time Australian xi alongside one of Ponsford, Woodfull, Barnes, Morris, Simpson, Lawry, and Hayden. I rate Trumper about on a par with any or all of those, but none of them made the 25 list.

 

[ma1978]

1. Tendulkar
2. Hobbs
3. Lara
4. Richards (v)
5. Sobers
6. Ponting
7. Chappell
8. Gavaskar
9. Hutton
10. Hammond
11. Headley
12. Richards (b)
13. Dravid
14. Sangakarra
15. Pollock
16. Weekes
17. Border
18. Grace
19. Ranji
20. Walcott
21. Miandad
22. Kallis
23. Waugh
24. Sutcliffe
25. Trumper

 

[mr_mister]

An interesting passage that makes you think despite not having a high average, Trumper was still special within the context of the early 1900s

No matter how bad the pitch might be from the combined effects of rain and sunshine, he was quite likely to get 50 runs, his skill in pulling good-length balls amounting to genius. Of this fact our English bowlers had convincing evidence day after day during the season of 1902. Trumper paid four visits to this country - in 1899, 1902, 1905, and 1909 - but it was in 1902 that he reached his highest point.

In that summer of wretched weather he scored 2570 runs in thirty-five matches for the Australian team, with the wonderful average, in the circumstances, of 48. He was as consistent as he was brilliant, and did not owe his average to a few exceptional scores. Of eleven innings of over a hundred, the biggest was 128.

 

[ma1978]

Clearly, he was the Joe Root of his time to Jack Hobbs's Steve Smith

An interesting passage that makes you think despite not having a high average, Trumper was still special within the context of the early 1900s

No matter how bad the pitch might be from the combined effects of rain and sunshine, he was quite likely to get 50 runs, his skill in pulling good-length balls amounting to genius. Of this fact our English bowlers had convincing evidence day after day during the season of 1902. Trumper paid four visits to this country - in 1899, 1902, 1905, and 1909 - but it was in 1902 that he reached his highest point.

In that summer of wretched weather he scored 2570 runs in thirty-five matches for the Australian team, with the wonderful average, in the circumstances, of 48. He was as consistent as he was brilliant, and did not owe his average to a few exceptional scores. Of eleven innings of over a hundred, the biggest was 128.