Ponting not a complete batsman - Harbhajan

[honestbharani]

LMAO, are you reading what I am writing? Let me go over it again very simply:

Ponting:

India: Home 79.35; Away 20.85; Overall 47.02

Sobers:

New Zealand: Home 36.14; Away 15.10; Overall 23.76

So Ponting is more complete than Sobers, right? And if so, then Tendulkar and Lara are more complete than both, right?

It's hard to believe anyone who possesses a simple grasp of mathematics would conclude that Ponting is less complete:

This argument being brought forth is akin to:

Batsman A: Averages 80 in every country but 20 in Country B.
Bastman B: Averages 40 in every country.

So just because in one country Batsman A/Ponting does poorly he is less "complete" even though you are conveniently forgetting that in ALL other instances combined Batsman A/Ponting is much superior to Batsman B/Tendulkar.

How about thinking it like this: Tendulkar is sub 50 in 5 countries, Ponting is only sub 50 in 3 (and one of them he only played 1 innings against)?

Averaging 30 against a country is poor. Not as poor as 20, but certainly poor for an all-time great - and the distinction between the two is laughable considering neither averages would help their countries out in a test series. Essentially, you are stacking up 1 away country for Ponting and saying that is STILL poorer than Tendulkar who averages in the 30s both home and away against S.Africa. When even mathematically, Ponting's worst test country is STILL by way some way stronger than Tendulkar's worst. (47 vs 35). Let's not even start on Lara who averages in the 30s away at TWO countries and averages in the 30s overall against India.

jeez man, all I said was "statistically" Ponting's record is not as complete as Lara or Sachin..


And yeah, Sobers' record is not as complete as Lara or Sachin's either, although I think he didn't play as many matches over as many years in New Zealand as Ponting has done in India.



And again, the point of weldone and myself has been NOT that Ponting is not a great batsman or that he is worse than Sachin or Lara, but simply that he is a bigger statistical hole in his stats than those two. If you want us to say it, then fine, Sobers has the same thing too....



It doesn't affect the way I rate them as batsmen, anyways...


Done with this thread. You know I don't care much for stats when comparing great players and that's that.

 

[Ikki]

Yeah Right, Please read your own post (minus the stupid spreadsheet). You reputation is pretty well known here and so is mine. I may be a worse poster but I am not known for my double-standards. I have no problem if you believe that Ponting is better, but I have a problem with the fabrication of facts and posting lies, twisting stats to suit your argument, which has been your forte and it is so obvious that even the new forum name isn't helping much.

I think we know who is fabricating what .

Here are some of lies :-

Lie No. 1 - Batsman A: Averages 80 in every country but 20 in Country B (Batsman A doesn't average 80 in every country except B)

Lie No. 2 - Bastman B: Averages 40 in every country. (Batsman B doesn't average 40 in every country )


Lie No. 3 - In one country Batsman A/Ponting does poorly (Compared to A, B does poorly in England, SriLanka, Zimbabwe and India)

Lie No. 4 :- Averaging 30 against a country is poor. Not as poor as 20, but certainly poor for an all-time great - and the distinction between the two is laughable considering neither averages would help their countries out in a test series. (So in which country or against which country did Tendulkar average 30 ?)

How can Batsman A and Batsman B be liars, they are purely used in an exemplary manner. Of course, I made the figures much more obvious so it's more glaring.

Point #1: Ponting averages 62 (as opposed to 80) in every other country bar India. Tendulkar averages 52 (as opposed to 40) away IIRC. That is a huge jump. The only thing (as I also mentioned in my example) that brings Ponting's overall away average down is...drum roll..India!

Point #2: I used the average of 40 - implying that 40 is a reasonable average - across the board to show that by this "definition" Tendulkar has no weaknesses. But again, even though he never drops beyond this point, he is not so far ahead of this point in many countries. Which shows why he is so far behind Ponting when we look at common opposition.

Point #3: What are you talking about? Where does B do poorly to India, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe or India? I used only one country to define the difference, country B. You'll have to elaborate on this one because again you don't make any sense.

Stats Manipulation No. 1 - In ALL other instances combined Batsman A/Ponting is much superior to Batsman B/Tendulkar (Yeah right take out Ponting major chunk of bad performance and obviously he is going to look like a genius)

Haha, When for example I play 150 tests, and I play 12 tests in 10 countries and average 100 and I play 30 tests in the 11th country and average 25, let's say, that is going to bring my overall average down by a lot. It also hides the fact that against EVERY other country I averaged 100 runs. For example, Ponting averages 62 against 8/9 Test nations and 52 against 9/9...that doesn't mean anything to you? If it doesn't, then I have no hope to assuage your grief.

So, Ponting is a full 10 runs (yes 10!) better in EVERY other instance bar India. So to assume his overall record, in terms of completeness especially, is inferior or incomplete - when comparing to his contemporaries - is ridiculous.

Stats Manipulations No. 2 - How about thinking it like this: Tendulkar is sub 50 in 5 countries, Ponting is only sub 50 in 3 (and one of them he only played 1 innings against)? (Right he played only 1 in Zimbabwe, and how many did he play in Pakistan, didn't stop you from pointing that Ponting's Sub 50 are less than SRT's, so much for being fair )

The example I used was a flawed one...why would I do that? Think about it...to expose the other flawed comparison that because Ponting averages 20 in one country his overall record is incomplete.

And FOR THE RECORD, the 2 tests played in UAE against Pakistan were in some of the toughest conditions played in the last decade. And he averaged almost 100? When most batsmen didn't get past 50? You're kidding aren't you?

Stats Manipulation No. 3 - You've also not taken into account Ponting's neutral games against Pakistan, have you? With all them, Ponting has an average of 52-53 IIRC which is pretty much the same as Tendulkar. (Why should I, they are called neutral not for nothing, even if you include that Ponting's away average is still < Tendulkar's despite all the selective criteria you have put up there )

They're neutral...and they are away from home. They were much more like Pakistan, than they were like Australia. Weren't they? So what should I say? Ponting averages 97 and Tendulkar hasn't played there so Ponting is superior?

And, yes, Tendulkar is 1 run better still...but remember, this is still including the many times that Tendulkar has played against minnows and Ponting hasn't. Get some perspective.

Stats Manipulation No. 4 - Ponting's record is really dragged down by his record in India because in every other country combined he averages in the 60s, which is not something Tendulkar can do, even if he takes away his worst away team. (Yeah right take away any player's major chunk of poor performance and he will look like Bradman, What Tendulkar has done is really unbelievable which is to score @ 58.53 against the Aussies and something Ponting can only dream of)

Um, guess what, by removing Tendulkar's "major chunk of bad performances" his average only goes up by 3-4 points. This is because in all other countries his performances haven't varied. Whereas Ponting's jump by 10 points!

Furthermore, I showed you that Tendulkar has played the minnows far more often than Ponting, so excluding those (and keeping the bad performances) their away averages are the same!

 

[Ikki]

jeez man, all I said was "statistically" Ponting's record is not as complete as Lara or Sachin..
And yeah, Sobers' record is not as complete as Lara or Sachin's either, although I think he didn't play as many matches over as many years in New Zealand as Ponting has done in India.
And again, the point of weldone and myself has been NOT that Ponting is not a great batsman or that he is worse than Sachin or Lara, but simply that he is a bigger statistical hole in his stats than those two. If you want us to say it, then fine, Sobers has the same thing too....
It doesn't affect the way I rate them as batsmen, anyways...
Done with this thread. You know I don't care much for stats when comparing great players and that's that.

Dear HB, if your point is you rate completeness on different factors, I have no argument there. However, if you rate completeness on the basis that you need to achieve a certain standard everywhere, then you have to admit that doing poorly home and away against India, and also only averaging 30s in NZ is bigger than just purely averaging in 20s in one instance. (this is Lara btw)

Not sure how you rate it, but 3 instances of averaging poorly is much worse than averaging poorly in once instance for me.

 

[Jakester1288]

Just because he plays for so long and takes a lot of wickets, it won't mean he is a complete bowler. Unless he somehow drastically improves himself, he won't go down as a great bowler.

He can be deadly if the pitch suits him and he is having a good day, competent generally in India, and can be economical if necessary. That's pretty much it. He has been very ineffective almost everywhere outside of India.

Great bowler he is far from. Very far.




VERY far.

People will look back in 10+ years (particularly the kids who will have never seen him bowl) and think he was a great bowler if he gets 600 test wickets. I don't think he deserves that many, and I don't think he will get that many, but he will be a legend in history if he does.

 

[Jakester1288]

Lara isn't a complete batsman either. He got dismissed 15 times by Glenn McGrath, not to mention the hold Andre Nel had over him. He can't truly be considered a great because he never managed to conquer those two bowlers. As for Tendulkar, you only have to look at his record against Murali and Jason Gillespie to see that he's blatantly not an all-time great. It's absurd to even suggest that a man with such an incomplete record is in the top drawer of batsmen.

I agree. Just because an all time great had problems against a certain bowler doesn't mean that they are not a complete player. In truth, no one is a complete player, there is always something they can improve. A shot, there calling, fitness, placement, and many other aspects of batting (or bowling as well). Ponting is in Lara and Tendulkars class, and has problems against two bowlers of note - Ishant Sharma and Harbhajan Singh. Everyone has a bogey man, and I don't get why Pontings is so emphised compared to the others.

Has an awful record against Allan Donald too. Clearly can't play pace.

He can play it, just not too well.

 

[Jakester1288]

Personally I think Katich is unquestionably the best player of spin in the side, hes played innings that some of the other players in the side can only dream off. I would also put Hussey ahead of Ponting against spin.

Hussey has a much better technique for facing spin early in his innings, demonstrated in Australia when Harbhajan was bowling and they were at the crease together. Hussey was playing back with soft hands, and hitting the ball in to the ground at his feet. Ponting was coming forward as much as possible, using tight hands on the bat and, occasionally, losing control of his shot, hitting the ball into the air unintendedly.

Hussey has a rock solid technique, formed by facing spin for 20 years, in junior cricket, grade and at interstate level, where the quality of spinners can be very high. Ponting, somehow doesn't look as confident. It will be good to see him against Vettori next week and later this summer, against the South African spinner (I can't remember the name, Tahir or something, who is supposed to be good). Only time will tell.

 

[Ikki]

Hussey's technique looks impenetrable at times, regardless who is bowling and what they are bowling. If I could model my game around a batsman it would be Hussey. He can shut bowlers out, or find gaps and run between the wickets or if need be smash the bowlers in all corners of the ground.

 

[Athlai]

I reckon Chanderpaul is much the same, and his technique is... different. That guy is damn well impossible to get out when he doesn't want to leave.

 

[G.I.Joe]

Isn't all this really proves is that opinions are like arse holes? Everyone has one.
I've been as guilty as anyone of some repetitive, strident arguments on here, but I think we all know where each of your guys are coming from here .

The unlucky baby with the imperforate anus begs to disagree

 

[Top_Cat]

I agree. Just because an all time great had problems against a certain bowler doesn't mean that they are not a complete player. In truth, no one is a complete player, there is always something they can improve. A shot, there calling, fitness, placement, and many other aspects of batting (or bowling as well). Ponting is in Lara and Tendulkars class, and has problems against two bowlers of note - Ishant Sharma and Harbhajan Singh. Everyone has a bogey man, and I don't get why Pontings is so emphised compared to the others.



He can play it, just not too well.

Jakester; both Uppercut and me were being sarcastic, dude.

 

[honestbharani]

Dear HB, if your point is you rate completeness on different factors, I have no argument there. However, if you rate completeness on the basis that you need to achieve a certain standard everywhere, then you have to admit that doing poorly home and away against India, and also only averaging 30s in NZ is bigger than just purely averaging in 20s in one instance. (this is Lara btw)

Not sure how you rate it, but 3 instances of averaging poorly is much worse than averaging poorly in once instance for me.

Averaging 30 is an acceptable thing against a "bogey" team as such.. Lara never played in India except for one series..



So if you think about, his average is only poor against India at home and even that is a stretch.. Ponting has bigger highs but also has a HUGE trough.. One over 12 tests and 4 or 5 series... I am not rating any of these batsmen on any of these but even you can see why STATISTICALLY it is a big hole in his resume.... I said it at the start, I don't care two hoots about stats when it comes to rating greats. They all have great records and if you nit pick enough, you will always find a way to diss them or praise them about some things but at the end of the day, they all have great records overall.

 

[Ikki]

Averaging 30 is an acceptable thing against a "bogey" team as such.. Lara never played in India except for one series..
So if you think about, his average is only poor against India at home and even that is a stretch.. Ponting has bigger highs but also has a HUGE trough.. One over 12 tests and 4 or 5 series... I am not rating any of these batsmen on any of these but even you can see why STATISTICALLY it is a big hole in his resume.... I said it at the start, I don't care two hoots about stats when it comes to rating greats. They all have great records and if you nit pick enough, you will always find a way to diss them or praise them about some things but at the end of the day, they all have great records overall.

Hmm. Ponting doesn't have a bogey team. Just a bogey country.

Lara played 3 tests in India averaging 33.00 and also 14 tests against India in WI averaging 34.95 - which is probably even worse TBH. That is a poor record, especially when you recall that he also averaged 36-37 away in NZ (7 tests). Ponting only has one bad trough in his career, not three. Statistically, Ponting is much more complete - at least in this context. Averaging in the 30s for an all-time great is poor. Averaging in the 20s is even poorer. But I take 1 20 over 3 30s. Especially considering away from home Lara averages 47 and Ponting averages about 52.

Just pointing it out for you .

 

[Uppercut]

I agree. Just because an all time great had problems against a certain bowler doesn't mean that they are not a complete player. In truth, no one is a complete player, there is always something they can improve. A shot, there calling, fitness, placement, and many other aspects of batting (or bowling as well). Ponting is in Lara and Tendulkars class, and has problems against two bowlers of note - Ishant Sharma and Harbhajan Singh. Everyone has a bogey man, and I don't get why Pontings is so emphised compared to the others.

Yeah, you've successfully nailed my point for those without an eye for irony (TEC).

 

[Precambrian]

None of the arguments are anyway going to prevent Harbhajan motormouth about Ponting's inferiority in his mind. As long as he is on the International scene anyway.

 

[quick4mindia]

yep, kumble has 619 wickets, he was one of the exceptional bowlers of this era but he is really not an all-time great...600 wickets is not a ticket to all-time greatness...

This is highly debatable.....Whom do you call an all time great is a matter of personal choice.....May be a worldwide poll asking to vote on some 10 categories which define an all time great followed by some behind the curtain statistical calculations will give some clue.

Many will have problems considering Murali as one of all time greats (may be because of his action) ....But you cant take his record away from him now .....

Kumble who was never in mold of a leggie had a different way of bowling...not appreciated by orthodox but he was successful and his 619 wickets can not be attributed to chance.

 

[pup11]

Look i don't even care about what a tool like Harbhajan has to say about a player like Ponting, someone like McGrath has got great batsmen like Lara and Tendulkar out a lot of times in both forms of the game, but we never heard McGrath go around saying that they were incomplete batsmen, Harbhajan comments just further go onto shown how full of **** he really is, the series is over Ponting has graciously accepted that the Indians outplayed his team and comments like these are completely uncalled for.

The surprising thing is that people on this forum are taking Harbhajan' words in seriousness, Ponting has been done in by some very good bowling from Harbhjan and Sharma time and again, and it has got nothing to do with his inability to play spin or not being a complete batsman, for me Ponting is already one of the greatest batsmen ever and i am sure over the upcoming years he would further enhance that reputation.

 

[krkode]

I think it's just mind games designed to unsettle Ponting and his fans, a little salt to rub in the wounds, so to speak.

Harbhajan may be a d**k, but he's not an idiot and Ponting is quite clearly a great batsman.

Everyone's over analyzing this, IMO.

 

[Lambu]

Well Harbhajan continues to rub it in..

Rajkot: Indian offspinner Harbhajan Singh, who has tormented Australian skipper Ricky Ponting time and again, has said the Tasmanian, who has been at the helm of affairs of the Australian cricket team for over four years now, isn’t an inspirational captain as he is imagined to be.

Speaking to DNA, an Indian newspaper, Harbhajan said, “Ponting was winning matches because he had great players like [Adam] Gilchrist, [Shane] Warne and [Glenn] McGrath.

"They won him matches and he took the credit. Now that they are gone, we can see that he is not an inspirational leader.

The offspinner also said Ponting made mistakes in the Border-Gavaskar Trophy Test series, which Australia lost recently. "He made mistakes in the Border-Gavaskar series. He is a very average captain. And he is a very average player too, especially here in India," Harbhajan said.

Under Ponting at the helm, Australia have won 33 of the 48 Test matches they’ve played, but have been found wanting against India, against who they’ve lost four Tests and won only two in nine attempts.

link:http://www.cricketnirvana.com/news/international/2008/November/news-20081113-314.html

 

[Jono]

He's such a bad winner. I agree with Anil (I think) who said the BCCI needs to gag him before he becomes the spokesman of the Indian team.

I'm hardly the biggest Ponting fan in terms of him as a person, but its insulting for someone like Harby to call Ponting an 'average' player. Not good for Indian cricket.

 

[silentstriker]

AWTA. Shut him up. Though its nice to hear his trash talk after a win, rather than a loss.