Ponting not a complete batsman - Harbhajan

[Ikki]

Kazaholic changed his forum name?

I few months back mate, and for reasons I hope you'll stop calling me that.













*net stalker*

 

[silentstriker]

And have you seen Sachin's 3rd/4th innings record? He's so incomplete.

I swear to God I am getting you banned for that. That's cruel.

I'm in a lab, and then all of a sudden freaking Nick Carter scares the rats away and everyone things I'm a douchebag for listening to backstreet boys.

 

[duffer]

Kazaholic changed his forum name?

What gave it away

 

[Precambrian]

Hahahaha.

Why the bloody hell you have to drag Tendulkar into every stats? If someone puts an argument against Ponting, automatically you assume he's a Tendulkar fan?? So pitiful and insecure you seem about your idol.

That said, Ponting's bloody best of the lot in the current decade, except that he has an achilles heel in India. That's all.

 

[Ikki]

Why the bloody hell you have to drag Tendulkar into every stats? If someone puts an argument against somebody, automatically you assume he's a Tendulkar fan?? So pitiful.

The reason I put Tendulkar into it is because he seems to be beyond criticism. Whereas his record and his inconsistencies are there just as Ponting's are. So why one batsman cops it much more than the other is just beyond me and something I find appalling, frankly. It's the same reason I brought Sobers into it. People laud Sobers as the second (along with Hobbs) batsman after Bradman. Yet the second batsman after Bradman has an even inferior record than Ponting. Which means either a) Ponting is severely underrated or b) the others are severely overrated.

In fact, you could take all this as a defence of Tendulkar. Because frankly, if the same arguments were being brought against Tendulkar I'd have a laugh. I remember Manan saying Sobers was ahead of Tendulkar and I questioned why - partly because of this same reason. I questioned it with Hayden and Gavaskar, Lillee and Hadlee, and many others. People take such a fine-tooth-comb with those they don't seem to cherish as much as their favourites yet if the reverse was done those holes in those records are just apparent if not moreso.

And if this is the standard then G.Chappell > Ponting, Tendulkar, Lara and Sobers by a mile.

 

[Ikki]

I swear to God I am getting you banned for that. That's cruel.

I'm in a lab, and then all of a sudden freaking Nick Carter scares the rats away and everyone things I'm a douchebag for listening to backstreet boys.

You gotta get the brilliance of it though. I am pointing out a lame point with a lame song from a lame band...

 

[Precambrian]

The reason I put Tendulkar into it is because he seems to be beyond criticism. Whereas his record and his inconsistencies are there just as Ponting's are. So why one batsman cops it much more than the other is just beyond me and something I find appalling, frankly. It's the same reason I brought Sobers into it. People laud Sobers as the second (along with Hobbs) batsman after Bradman. Yet the second batsman after Bradman has an even inferior record than Ponting. Which means either a) Ponting is severely underrated or b) the others are severely overrated.

In fact, you could take all this as a defence of Tendulkar. Because frankly, if the same arguments were being brought against Tendulkar I'd have a laugh. I remember Manan saying Sobers was ahead of Tendulkar and I questioned why - partly because of this same reason. I questioned it with Hayden and Gavaskar, Lillee and Hadlee, and many others. People take such a fine-tooth-comb with those they don't seem to cherish as much as their favourites yet if the reverse was done those holes in those records are just apparent if not moreso.

And if this is the standard then G.Chappell > Ponting, Tendulkar, Lara and Sobers by a mile.

Get a life man. There's much to it than Ponting and Tendulkar.

You may argue half the forum about Ponting being better, Another guy may argue about Tendulkar being be-and-end of it all, who cares? Nobody wins prizes, noone proves a point. Both are blind.

 

[Ikki]

Get a life man. There's much to it than Ponting and Tendulkar.

You may argue half the forum about Ponting being better, Another guy may argue about Tendulkar being be-and-end of it all, who cares? Nobody wins prizes, noone proves a point. Both are blind.

Er, where is all this aggression coming from?

I come on this forum to discuss things, if I didn't care then I wouldn't post here would I? Both aren't blind and both could have reasonable reasons for deciding why either is better. However, when a reason brought up is clearly a double standard then I'll address it if I think it's worth my time.

If you don't care or think that both are blind why are you posting?

 

[Sanz]

Why the bloody hell you have to drag Tendulkar into every stats? If someone puts an argument against Ponting, automatically you assume he's a Tendulkar fan?? So pitiful and insecure you seem about your idol.

That said, Ponting's bloody best of the lot in the current decade, except that he has an achilles heel in India. That's all.

Yeah, it has become ridiculously annoying, but hey what can you expect from people who can go to any stretch to prove their arguments.

Anyways once again some people have resorted to lies in presenting their arguments, Here are certain facts :-

SRT has better away average than Ponting in SriLanka, England, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Australia (Compared to Ponting's avg. in India), Ponting has better away average in Pakistan, SA and WI.

Their Overall Away averages - Ponting 50.39, Tendulkar 53.70, but that's not enough, we have gone thru this probably a million times on this forum..but you can't argue with people who think Sober's average was so high because he feasted against India which was a minnows side during his era,

 

[Ikki]

Yeah, it has become ridiculously annoying, but hey what can you expect from people who can go to any stretch to prove their arguments.

Anyways once again some people have resorted to lies in presenting their arguments, Here are certain facts :-

SRT has better away average than Ponting in SriLanka, England, Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, Australia (Compared to Ponting's avg. in India), Ponting has better away average in Pakistan, SA and WI.

Their Overall Away averages - Ponting 50.39, Tendulkar 53.70, but that's not enough, we have gone thru this probably a million times on this forum..but you can't argue with people who think Sober's average was so high because he feasted against India which was a minnows side during his era,

And he has the gall to talk about lies and misrepresenting...some people have no shame.

Ponting has played how many innings vs Zimbabwe, 1? How many has Tendulkar, yet he is barely above 40? Would you then care to look at their overall records? You've also not taken into account Ponting's neutral games against Pakistan, have you? With all them, Ponting has an average of 52-53 IIRC which is pretty much the same as Tendulkar. And Ponting's record is really dragged down by his record in India because in every other country combined he averages in the 60s, which is not something Tendulkar can do, even if he takes away his worst away team. It goes to show how dominant he has been everywhere else.

And if you take away minnows, then they both average about 51 (yes, with Ponting's India recorded included).

It's doubly misleading when you count in that measure when for example Ponting's record in NZ, Pakistan and WI is 30-50 points stronger than Tendulkar's and Tendulkar's records (Eng, Sri Lanka) which are better 13-20 points better.

Sanz is the epitome of this double-standard and this ignorant measure people seem to have.

 

[Precambrian]

Er, where is all this aggression coming from?

I come on this forum to discuss things, if I didn't care then I wouldn't post here would I? Both aren't blind and both could have reasonable reasons for deciding why either is better. However, when a reason brought up is clearly a double standard then I'll address it if I think it's worth my time.

If you don't care or think that both are blind why are you posting?

Why Am I not supposed to be aggressive?

Forums are for discussions, yes, but not for discussions that are excuses for trolling. The thread starter here wouldnt have expected this to be a Tendulkar Vs Ponting or Sobers Vs Ponting stat-war. Stick to the topic rather than trying to prove someone (Bhajji) who has almost 0% chance of visiting or reading what you have posted.

You are free to post, of course, but not to troll. By dragging Tendulkar etc into this discussion, you're just inviting to turn into another of those Tendulkar-Ponting dillydallying. Sick of it.

 

[Sanz]

It would be okay, if they can agree to stick with their 'Stats are everything' policy, but go to any Murali Vs. Warne or Sobers threads and you can see their hypocrisy and excuses and how Murali's/Sobers stats are inflated and what not.

 

[Ikki]

Why Am I not supposed to be aggressive?

Forums are for discussions, yes, but not for discussions that are excuses for trolling. The thread starter here wouldnt have expected this to be a Tendulkar Vs Ponting or Sobers Vs Ponting stat-war. Stick to the topic rather than trying to prove someone (Bhajji) who has almost 0% chance of visiting or reading what you have posted.

You are free to post, of course, but not to troll. By dragging Tendulkar etc into this discussion, you're just inviting to turn into another of those Tendulkar-Ponting dillydallying. Sick of it.

No, you're not supposed to be aggressive considering nothing inflammatory was mentioned. That would be a problem on your part.

The point Harbi mentioned is that Ponting is not complete, and people have continued to actually endorse that even if they censure Harbi. So, the thread, as threads tend to do, shift in topic - although hopefully staying relevant. It isn't about Tendulkar v Ponting. It is about double-standards of fans like Sanz who fail to see the bigger picture.

It would be okay, if they can agree to stick with their 'Stats are everything' policy, but go to any Murali Vs. Warne or Sobers threads and you can see their hypocrisy and excuses and how Murali's/Sobers stats are inflated and what not.

Anyone can hold the view that stats aren't everything and also show where stats are inflated (with the context of the argument, of course). Those two things are not exclusive.

Sanz strikes again.

 

[Precambrian]

No, you're not supposed to be aggressive considering nothing inflammatory was mentioned. That would be a problem on your part.

The point Harbi mentioned is that Ponting is not complete, and people have continued to actually endorse that even if they censure Harbi. So, the thread, as threads tend to do, shift in topic - although hopefully staying relevant. It isn't about Tendulkar v Ponting. It is about double-standards of fans like Sanz who fail to see the bigger picture.



Anyone can hold the view that stats aren't everything and also show where stats are inflated (with the context of the argument, of course). Those two things are not exclusive.

Sanz strikes again.

Nothing inflammatory? Geez, You only made it inflammatory by making it a Ponting-Tendulkar thread.

And if people tend to agree with what Harbhajan said, why you have a problem? There will be billions who do not agree or think the way you do. Why do you automatically assume they are supporters of Tendulkar?

 

[Ikki]

Nothing inflammatory? Geez, You only made it inflammatory by making it a Ponting-Tendulkar thread.

And if people tend to agree with what Harbhajan said, why you have a problem? There will be billions who do not agree or think the way you do. Why do you automatically assume they are supporters of Tendulkar?

It's only a Ponting Tendulkar thread if you wish to see it as such. This is not an attack on Tendulkar. This is a dialogue with those that appreciate Tendulkar inspite of things that they put Ponting down for.

I do have a problem with what Harbi says because if being complete is the standard of having performed to a certain level everywhere, then by no definition could Ponting be incomplete or less so because of one poor away record. Because as I've exemplified, many more batsmen, whom people rate higher than Ponting, have even less complete records.

I do not automatically assume they are supporters of Tendulkar, but I probe to see what this inconsistency is really about. Is it bias? Or just plain ignorance? BTW, when I say ignorance I do not mean it as an insult but say it as a matter-of-fact way, that people lack certain knowledge.

For Sanz, it is bias. Notice he is riled up here and trying to squash the discussion? Talking about stats and inflation? Yet when I was arguing for Wasim Akram, in comparison for Imran Khan (whom both I consider equal) I mentioned that Imran Khan's record against Sri Lanka (minnows of the time) clearly inflate his record and that as such the two (Wasim and Imran) are both closer than they appear on the face of it. But did you hear a peep from dear old Sanz then? No, because he rates Wasim ahead of Imran.

I, however, regard a great proportion of the people on this site as intelligent so it bothers me even more when such obvious things as these inconsistencies being addressed here are over-looked. People will give their reasons and I will press their reasons to their nth degree to challenge my own logic and theirs.

If you don't like this discussion; don't participate, simple.

 

[Precambrian]

It's only a Ponting Tendulkar thread if you wish to see it as such. This is not an attack on Tendulkar. This is a dialogue with those that appreciate Tendulkar inspite of things that they put Ponting down for.

I do have a problem with what Harbi says because if being complete is the standard of having performed to a certain level everywhere, then by no definition could Ponting be incomplete or less so because of one poor away record. Because as I've exemplified, many more batsmen, whom people rate higher than Ponting, have even less complete records.

I do not automatically assume they are supporters of Tendulkar, but I probe to see what this inconsistency is really about. Is it bias? Or just plain ignorance? BTW, when I say ignorance I do not mean it as an insult but say it as a matter-of-fact way, that people lack certain knowledge.

For Sanz, it is bias. Notice he is riled up here and trying to squash the discussion? Talking about stats and inflation? Yet when I was arguing for Wasim Akram, in comparison for Imran Khan (whom both I consider equal) I mentioned that Imran Khan's record against Sri Lanka (minnows of the time) clearly inflate his record and that as such the two (Wasim and Imran) are both closer than they appear on the face of it. But did you hear a peep from dear old Sanz then? No, because he rates Wasim ahead of Imran.

I, however, regard a great proportion of the people on this site as intelligent so it bothers me even more when such obvious things as these inconsistencies being addressed here are over-looked. People will give their reasons and I will press their reasons to their nth degree to challenge my own logic and theirs.

If you don't like this discussion; don't participate, simple.

If you consider people on this forum "intelligent", why are you worried about them making choices of their own?

Don't troll. I've seen other places also where you start your defence for Ponting by having a go at Tendulkar.

BTW Your Wasim = Imran is laughable at the best.

My last reply to you, atleast here. .

 

[Burgey]

Isn't all this really proves is that opinions are like arse holes? Everyone has one.
I've been as guilty as anyone of some repetitive, strident arguments on here, but I think we all know where each of your guys are coming from here .

 

[Ikki]

If you consider people on this forum "intelligent", why are you worried about them making choices of their own?

Don't troll. I've seen other places also where you start your defence for Ponting by having a go at Tendulkar.

BTW Your Wasim = Imran is laughable at the best.

My last reply to you, atleast here. .

Even intelligent people overlook things and have bias' towards certain things. If I feel that such a thing is happening, I will address it. That is my prerogative just as it is yours to disagree and show me why I am wrong...or not to post at all if you think it is not worth your time.

But then saying "don't troll" and saying "Wasim = Imran is laughable at the best" ...that's just funny. You just summed up why I'd use my time to argue. And frankly, you should use your own advise. Don't troll. I will say what I think, and you have no right to tell me that I can't. So don't waste your time and mine by hijacking the thread.

 

[Precambrian]

Interview with the Vampire

http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2008/nov/13interview-aus-were-busy-writing-books-harbhajan.htm

Some vignettes :

Actually, I should have got a hundred yaar. One hundred in the series would have been great. I think, if the other day, had [Mahendra Singh] Dhoni not got out [in the second innings of the fourth and final Test in Nagpur], we would have both got hundreds.

We are happy with whatever cricket we play. At the end of the day, we are happy with our result and let him be happy with his modern age cricket and do whatever he does. We are very happy with our cricket, whether is old age or new age. We stuck to our plans and we have done really well.

No wonder in the middle of a series, Ponting came up with a book and started crying again, 'I have done this, I have done that.'

Even Adam Gilchrist [Images] did a very wrong thing by criticising a legend like Sachin Tendulkar in his book. Tendulkar has been such a great player for India and done so many things not only for Indian cricket but also world cricket. I think there is something wrong with him, else you would not point a finger at Tendulkar.

Ponting also tried to distract us with his book by saying various things about the Sydney Test. We had moved on from that Sydney Test but these guys were still stuck at it by writing something new in their books everyday. I had such a difficult time in Australia after that incident, I was blamed by their players and then even the crowds booed me, but I overcame everything, but it seems they have not got over it.

I think they were busy writing for their books, while we were busy preparing for the series. You can see what difference it has made.

It is nice to get Ponting out all the time. He is a good player and has a very good record. He made all statements that he has prepared well for the spinners, improved his technique but I think whenever the pressure comes he still remains my bunny. I think any spinner can get him out early. If he comes in early and has to play a spinner straightaway in a pressure situation then the spinner can get him out.

If you see Matthew Hayden he is different because he can attack and dominate spinners. But for Ponting, any spinner can get him out if you put him under pressure.

The idiot has a sense of humour.!

 

[Sanz]

And he has the gall to talk about lies and misrepresenting...some people have no shame.

Ponting has played how many innings vs Zimbabwe, 1? How many has Tendulkar, yet he is barely above 40? Would you then care to look at their overall records? You've also not taken into account Ponting's neutral games against Pakistan, have you? With all them, Ponting has an average of 52-53 IIRC which is pretty much the same as Tendulkar. And Ponting's record is really dragged down by his record in India because in every other country combined he averages in the 60s, which is not something Tendulkar can do, even if he takes away his worst away team. It goes to show how dominant he has been everywhere else.

And if you take away minnows, then they both average about 51 (yes, with Ponting's India recorded included).

It's doubly misleading when you count in that measure when for example Ponting's record in NZ, Pakistan and WI is 30-50 points stronger than Tendulkar's and Tendulkar's records (Eng, Sri Lanka) which are better 13-20 points better.

Sanz is the epitome of this double-standard and this ignorant measure people seem to have.

Yeah Right, Please read your own post (minus the stupid spreadsheet). You reputation is pretty well known here and so is mine. I may be a worse poster but I am not known for my double-standards. I have no problem if you believe that Ponting is better, but I have a problem with the fabrication of facts and posting lies, twisting stats to suit your argument, which has been your forte and it is so obvious that even the new forum name isn't helping much.

This argument being brought forth is akin to:

Batsman A: Averages 80 in every country but 20 in Country B.
Bastman B: Averages 40 in every country.

So just because in one country Batsman A/Ponting does poorly he is less "complete" even though you are conveniently forgetting that in ALL other instances combined Batsman A/Ponting is much superior to Batsman B/Tendulkar.

How about thinking it like this: Tendulkar is sub 50 in 5 countries, Ponting is only sub 50 in 3 (and one of them he only played 1 innings against)?

Averaging 30 against a country is poor. Not as poor as 20, but certainly poor for an all-time great - and the distinction between the two is laughable considering neither averages would help their countries out in a test series. Essentially, you are stacking up 1 away country for Ponting and saying that is STILL poorer than Tendulkar who averages in the 30s both home and away against S.Africa.

Here are some of lies :-

Lie No. 1 - Batsman A: Averages 80 in every country but 20 in Country B (Batsman A doesn't average 80 in every country except B)

Lie No. 2 - Bastman B: Averages 40 in every country. (Batsman B doesn't average 40 in every country )


Lie No. 3 - In one country Batsman A/Ponting does poorly (Compared to A, B does poorly in England, SriLanka, Zimbabwe and India)

Lie No. 4 :- Averaging 30 against a country is poor. Not as poor as 20, but certainly poor for an all-time great - and the distinction between the two is laughable considering neither averages would help their countries out in a test series. (So in which country or against which country did Tendulkar average 30 ?)

Stats Manipulation No. 1 - In ALL other instances combined Batsman A/Ponting is much superior to Batsman B/Tendulkar (Yeah right take out Ponting major chunk of bad performance and obviously he is going to look like a genius)

Stats Manipulations No. 2 - How about thinking it like this: Tendulkar is sub 50 in 5 countries, Ponting is only sub 50 in 3 (and one of them he only played 1 innings against)? (Right he played only 1 in Zimbabwe, and how many did he play in Pakistan, didn't stop you from pointing that Ponting's Sub 50 are less than SRT's, so much for being fair )


Stats Manipulation No. 3 - You've also not taken into account Ponting's neutral games against Pakistan, have you? With all them, Ponting has an average of 52-53 IIRC which is pretty much the same as Tendulkar. (Why should I, they are called neutral not for nothing, even if you include that Ponting's away average is still < Tendulkar's despite all the selective criteria you have put up there )


Stats Manipulation No. 4 - Ponting's record is really dragged down by his record in India because in every other country combined he averages in the 60s, which is not something Tendulkar can do, even if he takes away his worst away team. (Yeah right take away any player's major chunk of poor performance and he will look like Bradman, What Tendulkar has done is really unbelievable which is to score @ 58.53 against the Aussies and something Ponting can only dream of)