Players that are the most overated by CW posters.

[silentstriker]

I don't rate his captaincy a lot (he's better at it than Sami is a bowler though!!) but I can't agree with this. To perform at the level he did for so long while wearing the armband more than makes up for his tactical errors. Having a captain bat at 3 like he did was worth far more than just runs, as was his tendency to ton up with his first knock of a series. There's no statistical way of calculating what that's worth; he may not be a great tactician but he was a great leader of men and as such captaincy does increase his value, IMO.

I've enumerated in the past how he has cost games and series, so I won't go into there. Suffice it to say he's a great batsman and a fielder.

Not disputing his man-management skills, which are important as captain but his tactics are not merely mediocre, or bad, in many cases they are shockingly stupid.

But we'll agree to disagree re: captaincy being better than Sami as a bowler. In my time of watching, he is, by far, the worst captain I haver ever seen on the cricket field tactically. That's about 15 years of me paying attention. As in, the second worst captain is as better to him as...well I can't think of a bowler to compare to Sami.

To sum it up, when playing India, my biggest hope is that Ponting is the captain because I feel India always has a chance. Even if it means enduring Ponting the batsmen (in Australia) who is great.

In India, it's a double whammy with his captaincy and batting, which makes me so happy that the single biggest hope I have is that he's still there for the next tour.

 

[GIMH]

Well I agree he made some tactical ****-ups, no need to discuss any further.

Do you not think though that

A - a captain scoring as reliably as he did is worth almost double because of the confidence it gives the other batsman
B - to score the runs he did whilst being captain is absolutely amazing, given the pressure (they say it's the 2nd most important job in Australia).

Just to point out that I'm not comparing him to Tendulkar here personally (the pressure of a nation's expectations and all that), just discussing how I rate him as an individual.

 

[silentstriker]

Well I agree he made some tactical ****-ups, no need to discuss any further.

Do you not think though that

A - a captain scoring as reliably as he did is worth almost double because of the confidence it gives the other batsman

No I would not agree. It helped him in keeping his job I'm sure though. Obviously it helps, but at that level, people are motivated by themselves and while captaincy can and does make a difference, it's not double or anywhere close to it.

B - to score the runs he did whilst being captain is absolutely amazing, given the pressure (they say it's the 2nd most important job in Australia).

Yes, scoring runs while being captain shows his mental toughness.

However, if he could have scored more runs without the burden, and at the same time spared Australia his ridiculously awful captaincy, he'd have been rated even higher by me. Would have helped Australia two ways.

Mind you, having Gilchrist, Hayden, himself, Hussey, McGrath, Warne is kind of ridiculous in terms of the riches one has, so it's not like he hurt Australia up until 2007-2008ish. SO it doesn't matter until then, except in the sense that he could have been even more dominant if the argument is that captaincy does take a mental toll and affect performance.

I'm not sure if it does, I'd like to see the stats of other all time great batsmen while they were captains and while they weren't, for example people like Sobers, Tendulkar, Lara, etc. It may or may not have an effect (It might, I'm just not sure if it has been shown one way or another).

 

[smash84]

.

I'm not sure if it does, I'd like to see the stats of other all time great batsmen while they were captains and while they weren't, for example people like Sobers, Tendulkar, Lara, etc. It may or may not have an effect (It might, I'm just not sure if it has been shown one way or another).

Tendulkar and to a lesser extent Lara were just awful with their batting when they were captains IIRC. Few captains have done well in batting with captaincy. Border and Waugh come to mind but Waugh had an all time great team at his disposal so the pressure was less on him too. Taylor too was not as good at batting when he was captain.

 

[silentstriker]

Very interesting. As I said, it does require toughness, and if it's borne out of stats that there is a batting performance dip, that speaks highly of people who didn't have one.


Though....having McGrath, Warne, Hayden, Gilchrist may make it a tad easier. He hasn't been doing all that well since they left, but I am not sure if that's pressure or simple out of form.

However, if the form-dipping is true with other great batsmen who became captains, it again speaks to his toughness and his prowess as a batsmen, but really doesn't affect his lack of tactical captaining ability.

 

[hang on]

tendulkar and lara still averaged above 50 while captains, smalishah. hardly awful!

 

[GIMH]

No I would not agree. It helped him in keeping his job I'm sure though. Obviously it helps, but at that level, people are motivated by themselves and while captaincy can and does make a difference, it's not double or anywhere close to it.

Hmmm, am sure I've seen some of the Aussie blokes on here provide quotes saying otherwise.

You only have to look at the difference in the scores Oz post when he does well compared to when he doesn't. I wouldn't be surprised if you actually could add his runs again in terms of what the other guys score when he does.

As for 'people are motivated by themselves', some people might be but it is most certainly not something you can state as a universal fact.

 

[smash84]

tendulkar and lara still averaged above 50 while captains, smalishah. hardly awful!

I might be mixing up their ODI performances then. Team performances certainly were awful under both of them

 

[GIMH]

Very interesting. As I said, it does require toughness, and if it's borne out of stats that there is a batting performance dip, that speaks highly of people who didn't have one.


Though....having McGrath, Warne, Hayden, Gilchrist may make it a tad easier. He hasn't been doing all that well since they left, but I am not sure if that's pressure or simple out of form.

However, if the form-dipping is true with other great batsmen who became captains, it again speaks to his toughness and his prowess as a batsmen, but really doesn't affect his lack of tactical captaining ability.

Leadership is just as important as tactics when it comes to captaincy.

 

[JBH001]

I personally think...this pseudo-elitist anti-sachin brigade that's beginning to form is quite a bit more annoying than the mythical sachin is th best ever brigade that's trotted out as a strawman.

Haha, just saw this as I was skimming the thread. AWTA so much. Unfortunately, I fear this brigade is soon to be surpassed by the sun shines out of Imran's arse brigade.

 

[JBH001]

Agree. This forum knows nothing about the extents to which Sachin hero-worship can go. At least none of the regular posters do anything of that sort. There are those casual followers who think he is the greatest thing to have happened to cricket even when they don't know who Gary Sobers was. I have met plenty of them.

I thought Burgey was taking the piss with that post, not offering a serious opinion masquerading as taking the piss. I'd think he'd know better.

 

[JBH001]

Sobers as a bowler(Okay, perhaps he wasn't as below average a bowler as the stats tell us, Maybe he was better than that but some make it sound like the Greek Goddess Hera stripped and danced evertime he bowled)

Yes, because some (as yet unnamed) people actually say that about his bowling.

 

[silentstriker]

Leadership is just as important as tactics when it comes to captaincy.

Sure but you better be Churchill at leadership to make up for being Custer at tactics. And even then you'd come out even at best.

I've watched the entirety of Ponting's captaincy career, and the fact that I am always happy when he is captaining against a team I support says everything I need.

He is the worst captain that I have ever seen and it certainly affects my overall rating of him as a player.

It doesn't affect my rating of him as a batsman (he is obviously great) or a fielder (one of the best ever), but overall?

Yea, captaincy is horrible.

Anyway I don't want to derail this thread with this discussion, and it's fair enough for you to believe otherwise. I just disagree and hope earnestly he is the captain when India face him next.

 

[Maximus0723]

Ricky Ponting and Jacques Kallis.

Definitely not Ricky. Definitely.
Unless you are referring to Ikki.

 

[Himannv]

Sobers as a bowler(Okay, perhaps he wasn't as below average a bowler as the stats tell us, Maybe he was better than that but some make it sound like the Greek Goddess Hera stripped and danced evertime he bowled)

This post is such a turn on.

 

[abmk]

Tendulkar and to a lesser extent Lara were just awful with their batting when they were captains IIRC. Few captains have done well in batting with captaincy. Border and Waugh come to mind but Waugh had an all time great team at his disposal so the pressure was less on him too. Taylor too was not as good at batting when he was captain.

sachin was patchy for a while as a captain, but still did well overall, averaging above 50

lara averaged more as a captain ( 57.8) than not as captain ( 50.12) , partly to do with batting getting easier in the 2000s, but still ...

 

[smash84]

Haha, just saw this as I was skimming the thread. AWTA so much. Unfortunately, I fear this brigade is soon to be surpassed by the sun shines out of Imran's arse brigade.

 

[Cevno]

This may be controversial but i certainly think Viv Richards ,Garry Sobers and Richard Hadlee are all a bit overrated on this forum on one aspect or the other.

 

[Howe_zat]

I personally think Hadlee is overrated as a batsman but underrated as a bowler. Sobers perhaps vice versa.

 

[ankitj]

Hadlee is a super gun For a period of eleven years he averaged sub 20 while picking up 5.5 wickets a match. And of course, there is the match winning influence he had on an average team that I mention often. Even though I think the term "match winner" is quite vague and ill-defined, but if I had to use that for one cricketer, I'll use it for Hadlee.