Personal Cricket Statutes

[Scaly piscine]

Harmison still bowls too short in general and doesn't build the pressure he should.
The fact that he's simply not taking wickets with any regularity is telling. Yes, he bowled well in the West Indies last year. He then struggled when WI toured England, except for one innings.

Examine his figures against Australia. He took 5/43 in the first innings of the series. After that, he took 12 wickets at an average of 42.17. The length that he bowled may have caused some bruises and shaken up the batsmen, but it wasn't very effective otherwise. England can afford to carry Harmison around at the moment until he regains his form, but to say he would walk into any team in the world - rubbish.

Yes, he bowls with heart and determination, but so do Brett Lee, Fidel Edwards and Tino Best. They're not good enough (yet) either. Steve Harmison has shown that he can be a world class bowler, but he's more often shown that he isn't at this point in time.

If 138 Test wickets and a good series against Australia is the qualification for a world-class bowler who would walk into any side, what about Mervyn Dillon? 131 Test wickets isn't quite 138, but he took 16 wickets in 4 Tests (Harmison took 17 in 5) the last time WI toured Australia. He averaged less than 30 and (Harmison >30) Australia only lost 48 wickets in those 4 Tests. Of the 5 times Mark Waugh was dismissed in those 4 Tests, Dillon was the bowler on each occasion.

Would Dillon walk into any team in the world?

This is the sort of bulls*** I'd expect from Motson - comparing him with Lee, Edwards and Best, sheer lunacy. Yes Harmison would get into any international side, easily - hell he's made the last 13 of a Rest of the World side. Keep removing figures when it suits your motive you can make any player look bad. Lets remove any innings where Lara scores a century - oh look he's crap really, out 4 times to Harmy...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

This is the sort of bulls*** I'd expect from Motson - comparing him with Lee, Edwards and Best, sheer lunacy. Yes Harmison would get into any international side, easily - hell he's made the last 13 of a Rest of the World side. Keep removing figures when it suits your motive you can make any player look bad. Lets remove any innings where Lara scores a century - oh look he's crap really, out 4 times to Harmy...

Haha. The only figures I'm actually removing that "suit me" are those against Bangladesh. Hence, the basis for my point is that he averages just under 40 over the last year against opposition approaching Test standard. All the other adjustment of figures is being done by Stephen himself. It's not my fault he only took 12 wickets in 9 innings against Australia. It's not my fault that the statistics indicate that he's not good enough to walk into any side in the world. He's a good bowler, but not as good as you seem to want him to be - yet. I'm sorry if I've touched a nerve though.

I gave Harmison tons of credit when he did well in the Caribbean last year. In fact, if you read back, you'll see I predicted the success too. I was very pleased for him then. The plain fact is that he hasn't pushed on.

I was comparing Harmison to Lee/Edwards/Best only on the level that they all bowl with heart and passion. My point there is that it does not define a world-class bowler. I love the way you ignore my point on Dillon though.

Lets remove any innings where Lara scores a century - oh look he's crap really, out 4 times to Harmy...

Don't be ridiculous. At least I'm being sensible in this debate and bringing reasonable facts to the table.

 

[Scaly piscine]

Haha. The only figures I'm actually removing that "suit me" are those against Bangladesh. Hence, the basis for my point is that he averages just under 40 over the last year against opposition approaching Test standard. All the other adjustment of figures is being done by Stephen himself. It's not my fault he only took 12 wickets in 9 innings against Australia. It's not my fault that the statistics indicate that he's not good enough to walk into any side in the world. He's a good bowler, but not as good as you seem to want him to be - yet. I'm sorry if I've touched a nerve though.

You've removed all the figures from last year, an innings when he took 5-43 and a series against Bangladesh. If you actually bothered to look at his figures on a series by series basis over the past 2 years (I've included them below for you to selectively ignore) it'd be fairly obvious even to you that he'd make any international side on statistics. Still I guess you probably think he bribed his way into the ICC World XI squad ahead of Dillon (who averages far more with the ball as you know).

England in Bangladesh, 2003/04 [Series]
Eng 1 0 0 0.00 0 0 9 5/35 8.77 1 0 0
The Wisden Trophy (Eng/WI) in West Indies, 2003/04 [Series]
Eng 4 21 13 5.25 0 0 23 7/12 14.86 2 0 0
New Zealand in England, 2004 [Series]
Eng 3 0 0 0.00 0 0 21 4/74 22.09 0 2 0
The Wisden Trophy (Eng/WI) in England, 2004 [Series]
Eng 4 80 36* 26.66 0 0 17 6/46 29.52 1 0 0
Basil D'Oliveira Trophy (Eng/SA) in South Africa, 2004/05 [Series]
Eng 5 96 42 24.00 0 0 9 3/91 73.22 0 0 0
Bangladesh in England, 2005 [Series]
Eng 2 - - - - - 10 5/38 20.10 1 1 0
The Ashes (Aus/Eng) in England, 2005 [Series]
Eng 5 60 20* 10.00 0 0 17 5/43 32.29 1 1 0

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

You've removed all the figures from last year, an innings when he took 5-43 and a series against Bangladesh. If you actually bothered to look at his figures on a series by series basis over the past 2 years (I've included them below for you to selectively ignore) it'd be fairly obvious even to you that he'd make any international side on statistics. Still I guess you probably think he bribed his way into the ICC World XI squad ahead of Dillon (who averages far more with the ball as you know).

England in Bangladesh, 2003/04 [Series]
Eng 1 0 0 0.00 0 0 9 5/35 8.77 1 0 0
The Wisden Trophy (Eng/WI) in West Indies, 2003/04 [Series]
Eng 4 21 13 5.25 0 0 23 7/12 14.86 2 0 0
New Zealand in England, 2004 [Series]
Eng 3 0 0 0.00 0 0 21 4/74 22.09 0 2 0
The Wisden Trophy (Eng/WI) in England, 2004 [Series]
Eng 4 80 36* 26.66 0 0 17 6/46 29.52 1 0 0
Basil D'Oliveira Trophy (Eng/SA) in South Africa, 2004/05 [Series]
Eng 5 96 42 24.00 0 0 9 3/91 73.22 0 0 0
Bangladesh in England, 2005 [Series]
Eng 2 - - - - - 10 5/38 20.10 1 1 0
The Ashes (Aus/Eng) in England, 2005 [Series]
Eng 5 60 20* 10.00 0 0 17 5/43 32.29 1 1 0

I did not remove the 5/43 from my original analysis. He averages almost 40 with that 5/43 and even if I leave Bangladesh, he averages over 35. My analysis is over a period of about a year ecompassing series against WI, SA, Aus, and Bangladesh if you wish. How did I remove his performances in the WI and against NZ? I was talking from that point on.

As such, I'm still waiting for you to do something more than simply state my argument is ridiculous (not in so many words though). To this point you've not given me a mature argument regarding my Dillon point.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Since I'm a charitable mood, here are some stats to help your thought process:

SJ Harmison's last 16 Tests (including Bangladesh):
53 wickets @ 36.05
Economy 3.55

M Dillon's last 16 Tests (including Zimbabwe):
54 wickets @ 34.53
Economy 2.89

 

[Scaly piscine]

To this point you've not given me a mature argument regarding my Dillon point.

You're yet to make a mature point. All you've done is hand-pick a few isolated statistics that don't mean anything - I suggest you flamebait elsewhere or lend your bulls*** to this thread.

 

[steds]

You're yet to make a mature point.

That also applies to you.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

You're yet to make a mature point. All you've done is hand-pick a few isolated statistics that don't mean anything - I suggest you flamebait elsewhere or lend your bulls*** to this thread.

If that's how you see it, then so be it. And in what way am I flamebaiting or offering anything other than statistics and facts? And I'm the immature one? Wow. In what way is his performance over his last 16 Tests a "hand-picked isolated statistic that doesn't mean anything"?

I suggest you ease up on the entirely uncalled for pprofanity.

 

[Dasa]

You're yet to make a mature point. All you've done is hand-pick a few isolated statistics that don't mean anything - I suggest you flamebait elsewhere or lend your bulls*** to this thread.

You are without doubt the rudest and most arrogant person on these forums...not only that, you have th audacity to accuse a well-respected member of flamebaiting??

 

[aussie]

Vaughan is the most elegant batsman playing the game atm. I don't see how anyone could think he is more elegant than Tendulkar...

well i've seen i remeber Tendulkar blazing australia in India in 98 & uo when i saw Vaughan in australia 2 years ago i though that i would never see such an elegant bastman score runs so magnificently, not even Lara performaces againts us in 99 weren't has elegant has Vaughan IMO, thats why i think Vaughan is the most elegant of them all when in top form

 

[LongHopCassidy]

To be honest, I've never thought of Tendulkar as elegant. A blaster, a grafter, a front-foot hooker or a rock, but he's never had the same grace or ease of shotmaking as, say, Lara or Vaughan.

 

[honestbharani]

To each his own, I guess. For me personally, Sachin's straight drive is one of the best sights in cricket (although I still think BCL is greater to watch than Sachin).

 

[Mister Wright]

To each his own, I guess. For me personally, Sachin's straight drive is one of the best sights in cricket (although I still think BCL is greater to watch than Sachin).

Don't get me wrong. Tendulkar is a great batsman and is very elegant. But there are none who are more elegant than Vaughan...none!

 

[honestbharani]

Don't get me wrong. Tendulkar is a great batsman and is very elegant. But there are none who are more elegant than Vaughan...none!

well, Laxman at his best comes close in terms of sheer elegance and so would Mark Waugh. But yes, there is no doubt that at full flow, Mickey is one of the most elegant players in the world.

 

[Mister Wright]

well, Laxman at his best comes close in terms of sheer elegance and so would Mark Waugh. But yes, there is no doubt that at full flow, Mickey is one of the most elegant players in the world.

I would put Laxman 2nd on the list. As far as Mark Waugh goes, I didn't think he was all that elegant, but that's my personal opinion which not many other people seem to share.

 

[SquidAU]

Nothing gets me more giddy than seeing M Waugh in full flight. He and Laxman make batting look so easy.

 

[howardj]

Nothing gets me more giddy than seeing M Waugh in full flight. He and Laxman make batting look so easy.

I hear ya man. Junior Waugh was all class.

 

[aussie]

Don't get me wrong. Tendulkar is a great batsman and is very elegant. But there are none who are more elegant than Vaughan...none!

you can say that again......

 

[Deja moo]

You're yet to make a mature point. All you've done is hand-pick a few isolated statistics that don't mean anything - I suggest you flamebait elsewhere or lend your bulls*** to this thread.

Just quit while you're beaten.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

For some reason this thread just returned to memory. Had some decent discussion at times in this thread.

New statutes:

- English cricket fans who complain "I wish Player A was in the team, because he has so much potential" don't know how good they've got it. Knowing that there's at least a chance that a player like Trott will be called up is so much better than knowing that the second best is Shawn Findlay/Kieron Pollard/Andre Fletcher.
- Obviously WI selectors are clueless about spinners. Not only was it criminal to play Benn ahead of Jaggernauth and Miller, but dropping Jaggernauth was disgraceful. The man bowled on day one and 3 overs on day four against the best batsmen in the world, and was deemed a failure. Profound misunderstanding of fingerspin.

Let's hear them then. Any updates?

What are your cricket morals? What statutes do you base your whole perception and opinions of cricket on? Rather than have people state their opinions over and over again (ie flat spin, AA, SH etc), might as well just post them in one place.