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godofcricket

State 12th Man
Yes, civilian deaths have fallen dramatically as well*. Cynics theorise it's because of the religious slaughter has ended in mostly homogenous neighbourhoods which is partly true, but it's also because Al Qaeda has scaled back operations and the Mahdi Army was boned pretty badly in March.

*http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
Look i dont know what ur trying to argue about here. I was just trying to say if you wana give figures, you should show some sort sympathy on the number of these poor innocent iraqi people aswell which easily out number the US deaths. I hope now u understand what i meant.
 

Shaggy Alfresco

State Captain
Look i dont know what ur trying to argue about here. I was just trying to say if you wana give figures, you should show some sort sympathy on the number of these poor innocent iraqi people aswell which easily out number the US deaths. I hope now u understand what i meant.
I'm not trying to argue anything. You asked me for a number of Iraqi civilian casualties and I showed you them. :p
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/pakistan/content/current/story/370884.html

Getting somewhat back on topic - this should be of some consolation for well-wishers of Pakistani cricket. Hoping the security situation bottoms out by then for this to happen.
PCB needs to thank its lucky stars for having a big brother like the BCCI. I know the relationship is beneficiary to the BCCI as well in terms of a guaranteed vote it gets from the PCB, but Pakistan cricket would officially be dead (rather than on life support like it is now) if not for India.
 
Duh, i thought RAW was the most incompetent intelligence in the whole world. I don't buy this argument that they are behind Baloch seperatists because they simply don't have a motive, and hardly has the political free-go to do such things, unlike the ISI, which has become above the government.

Pakistan would do well to cut off US action in it's territory in the name of war against terror, because as they proved in Iraq, brute force will never ever kill terrorism.
RAW is not doing it alone,it has full support of CIA & Israelian intelligence agencies behind its back.CIA provides the money while RAW trains the terrorists using its High Commissions in Afghanistan as base.And if RAW & CIA are not currently involved in whats going on in Pakistan,then ISI was neverinvolved in any act of terror that ever occured on Indian soil.Believe it or nor,every intelligence agency is dirty & neither ISI nor RAW can be considered innocent orincompetent especially considering the tension between these twocountries since partition.
 
Not correct, read up on the mid-70's Baluch uprising.
Itwasn'tsuch a big separatist movement then as it has become after the 9/11.It was just one ortwolandlords whowanted control over Oil & Gas resourcesof Balochistan.First Bugti was doing taking arms & money from India & now we have Mengals & doing the same thing.The case is pretty similar to ISI supporting liberation groups in Assam & Khalistan movement in the past though.I've talked to many Balochis and they've told me that whatever is being done is by these GHADDAAR landlords and their malatias.A common,urban baloch has nothing to with it.
 

WhatisRight

School Boy/Girl Captain
A really good article by one of the most respected writers in pakistan.

Whose war? America's or ours?


Islamabad diary

Friday, September 26, 2008
by Ayaz Amir

Was there such an animal as the Tehrik Taliban-I-Pakistan before the American invasion of Afghanistan? The Americans sparked turmoil and chaos in this region and now that they are bogged down in Afghanistan, how come this adventure they thoughtlessly started becomes our war?

Yet from President Asif Zardari downwards---Zardari more of America's man than even Pervez Musharraf---our leadership is working overtime to convince a fed-up nation, which has lapped up more than its share of lies, that this is our war too and we are under a moral obligation to fight it.

Should terrorism be fought? Of course it should. Only question is whether it can be successfully fought by a nation perceived as having lost all self-respect and doing not what is in its best interests but in the interests of the United States. Constant American lectures about 'doing more', especially when our own people are dying every day, and monthly handouts---80-100 million dollars---for services rendered is almost guaranteed to ensure that the entire argument about this soc-called war on terror gets distorted and the Pakhtoon population which is in the centre of this conflict turns irredeemably hostile.

The way the Americans have gone about this business, carrying out unilateral strikes on the basis of doubtful intelligence and causing innocent deaths, and the way they have pressurised the army to conduct military operations in that area, they've been instrumental in destroying the old tribal-***-administrative structure which stood Pakistan, and before us the British, in good stead for a hundred and fifty years. Now after helping create this chaos they are expecting the battered state of Pakistan to bestir itself from the ashes and perform miracles.

When will our military geniuses understand that far from enabling us to wage any kind of war, the American alliance---with the baggage of opprobrium that it brings---dooms us to eventual failure in the conflict now raging in the tribal areas? The Americans got it wrong, and disastrously so, in Iraq. The resurgence of the Taliban shows they got it wrong in Afghanistan. What makes us so sure they've got it right about our tribal areas?


http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=137956
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Whose war is it anyway?

Huma yusufa Karachi-based journalist
Sep 27, 2008​

What is it going to take to make us Pakistanis realise that the war against Terror raging in the northern and tribal areas of the country — and increasingly, in major urban centers — is our war? The suicide bombing at Islamabad’s Marriott Hotel should have done the trick. The attack occurred in Ramadan, a holy month that the Government initially aimed to observe by declaring a cease-fire with the militants. Although that move was deemed a security faux pas, the fact that the militants who fight in the name of God felt no similar compulsion to respect the sanctity of Ramadan should resonate with many. As should the CCTV footage showing the hotel’s hapless security guards rushing about moments before the attack, which is circulating endlessly via YouTube.
More than the timing of the attack, its devastating death toll should have Pakistanis simultaneously enraged and introspective. By conservative estimates, 53 people were killed and 250 injured in the suicide bombing. Of those killed, four have been identified as foreigners: two US Marines, the Czech ambassador, and a Danish intelligence official. The rest were Pakistanis — innocent hotel employees and area residents out with their families for dinner. As a result, the local media dubbed the attack “Pakistan’s 9/11.” But that moniker has not necessarily provoked Pakistanis to take ownership of the local war against terror.

On Wednesday night, Islamabad-based journalists allegedly received text messages from the group that has claimed responsibility for the Marriott bombing, stating that more attacks against American targets were imminent. Interestingly enough, the Pakistani owner of the Marriott Hotel and others who dared ‘facilitate’ the United States were identified as targets. The ludicrous claim that a successful Pakistani businessman is ‘an American target’ should make the majority of us realise that this spreading terror is in fact an internal matter and one that is steadily spinning out of control. After all, when Pakistanis become ‘American targets’ for inexplicable reasons, no one remains immune. Am I vulnerable because I have attended university in the US? Are you in the line of fire because you keep your savings in US dollars?

The Marriott attack was the eleventh suicide bombing in Pakistan this year, and the sixth in Islamabad since July last year. Over 300 people have already died in nationwide suicide attacks this year, a shocking statistic in a country where suicide bombings were rare about five years ago. No.wonder then, everyone in Pakistan is on edge. On Thursday, days after the Marriott attack, security at the Islamabad airport remained on high alert after a suicide bombing threat. Many perceived this as the beginning of the end, an early stage in the gradual paralysis of normal life, the dawning of an era in which regular suicide bombings will be a norm.

And yet, we Pakistanis still don’t think of the war against Terror as our war.

Evidence for this fact came from New York this week where President Asif Ali Zardari — in town to address the United Nations General Assembly — found himself tiptoeing around the issue. Zardari has made a concerted effort in recent weeks to reframe the militant threat as Pakistan’s problem. He has repeatedly stated that the war against terror is Pakistan’s war and resorted to evocative metaphors of disease and despair to emphasize the inward focus of the terrorist threat. But saying it won’t make it so.

The fact is, any action against the militants is still perceived by most Pakistanis as an execution of US directives. That perception is amplified in the case of Zardari, who has yet to shake off his reputation as a puppet of the US — an opinion that found more takers once the new president cancelled his scheduled trip to China and instead made his first official visit to the US.

In June, a poll conducted by the International Republican Institute showed that 71 per cent of Pakistanis oppose Pakistan’s cooperation with the US against Muslim militants. The fact that Zardari spent most of his time with President Bush swapping semantics on the issue of national sovereignty and emphasising that Pakistan was opposed to ground operations by US troops on its soil implies that sentiment continues to hold water, even after the Marriott bombing. It probably doesn’t help that US Secretary of Defense Robert Gates announced that the “greatest threat of terrorism against the United States comes from the tribal areas of Pakistan” while Zardari was still hobnobbing with world leaders. This statement suggests that US involvement in Pakistani terrorism is only due to escalate.
For Pakistanis to truly embrace the war against terror as their war, the US must back off. Only when the Pakistan Army fights this war in isolation can we convincingly say that this is our war. And it must be our war, for only then can we rally.and organise to demand security from our government, accountability from the clerics in our mosques, and loyalty from the tribal leaders who host Taliban militants. Once Pakistan’s stakes in the war on Terror are established, the Government will be in a position to request — without seeming like a mere stooge or siphon — much-needed aid from the international community in the form of intelligence cooperation, resources, and counterterrorism training for our troops. Without that, this is a war that cannot be won.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member

Over the years, I have received literally hundreds of emails from readers accusing me of towing the western line over the war against extremism. I suppose this is the result of arguing consistently that this is not America’s war, but ours; and irrespective of what Washington does, we need to fight this battle for our own survival. By and large, this kind of anti-western sentiment is echoed across our television channels and our print media. Our talk-show stars and our newspaper pundits sing from the same hymn-book as they repeat their jingoistic mantra of sovereignty and nationalism.

I can understand the thought process of the Taliban in their different manifestations as they wreak mayhem across Pakistan. They believe in a cause, and are willing to kill and die for it. I happen to abhor everything they stand for, but at least I know where they are coming from and what they want.

However, what I cannot grasp is the position so many of our urban elites have adopted. They appear to want Pakistan to be a modern, prosperous country that is part of the rest of the world. They also seem to want to live in the 21st century with the rest of us. So why is it that they think we should not be fighting the Taliban? Basically, their hatred for America has blinded them to the real threat these extremists pose. Perhaps they imagine that if western troops were to leave Afghanistan tomorrow, peace would return to the region overnight.

Wake up and smell the danger out there. The Taliban want nothing less than the imposition of the Sharia.
And obviously, they are not going to tolerate any dissent, such as the kind of anti-government commentary so common in the media today. In a very real sense, our commentariat are making the task of the Taliban easier. By equating opposition to the Taliban with pro-western opinion, they are, consciously or unconsciously, preparing the way for an extremist victory.

Oddly, many of my online critics are women who accuse me of taking a belligerent line when it comes to fighting the Taliban menace. When I ask them if they would like to live under a benighted version of Islamic law such as the one the Taliban imposed in Afghanistan, they immediately say they don’t. Basically, all these people would like their cake and eat it too. They want to vent against the Americans, and they want the extremists to stay a long distance away, too. Sorry, friends, but you have to choose: no neutrals allowed in this war.

Over the years, intolerance has hardened and become a murderous element that is now threatening to break up Pakistan. Whether this is expressed in the form of a truck of explosives detonated outside the Marriott; an Ahmadi killed because his beliefs do not conform to mainstream orthodoxy; a Christian attacked on the grounds of his faith; or a Hindu girl kidnapped because she has no protection in a Muslim state, it all leads back to the same strain of intolerance that says: ‘I am right, and you are wrong. And because you are wrong, I have the right to kill you.’

We need to be very clear that all these everyday examples from contemporary Pakistani society reveal a nation at war with itself. More than ever before, this violent zeal needs to be fought by moderates. We need to hear more voices of reason and sanity that oppose the simplistic, black-and-white worldview of the fundamentalists. And the media has a duty to promote this peaceful vision.​
 

Dasa

International Vice-Captain
the simplistic, black-and-white worldview
Hmm, seems just like the worldview of the author judging by that article.
I think it's worth quoting this again:
Cute articles SJS, but completely devoid of ground realities and facts. The articles fail to mention that outside of the US, no other country has lost more of its soldiers in the war on terror than Pakistan. No other country has deployed as many troops to battle the terrorists than Pakistan. No other country has chosen to engage in almost a civil war type warfare to rid the militants from its soil. The situation in the Pakistani border is a complicated one. It wasn’t created overnight and it won’t be fixed overnight. Pakistan certainly is to blame for a lot of it, but so are other countries, chief among them being the United States. If you are trying to prove that Pakistanis need to confront terrorism, then you can stop lecturing now. We get it, thank you very much. We get it each time a brave soldier dies confronting those terrorist. We get it each time an innocent bystander is blown apart by those terrorist. And we get it when even the mundane things in life (relatively speaking) like playing cricket are no longer possible because of the havoc created by those terrorist. It’s very easy to say (whether by outsiders or insiders) that “Pakistan is not doing enough”. There’s no freaking magic wand here. Winning this war will take time and a lot more sacrifice by Pakistanis. We get it. Do you?
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member

While scrolling through Dawn’s Internet edition, I learned that our sports minister was very upset over the Australian decision to cancel its cricket tour of Pakistan because of security concerns. The minister complained that although bombs were going off in India too, the Australians were going ahead with their visit to our neighbour. Well, the truth is that there are bombs, and there are bombs: the devices that have taken such a tragic toll in Indian cities were locally made, and did not involve suicide bombers. Above all, they did not target foreigners.

In Pakistan, given half a chance, our home-grown heroes would happily kill as many foreigners as they could. The suicide attack at the Islamabad Marriott appeared intended to slaughter as many westerners as possible. The other difference is that the terrorist attacks in India were universally condemned. In Pakistan, there is much more ambivalence in people’s attitudes towards these killers, with many in the media coming up with the “Yes, but …” argument to somehow equate terrorism with western policies.

We in Pakistan have lost touch with reality to the extent that we do not realise how out of step we are with the rest of the world. Even before Pakistan became a no-go land for foreigners, it was not a particularly attractive destination. When Ian Botham famously declared that Pakistan was a country he would like to send his mother-in-law to, there was an explosion of indignation in our media. But look at it from a touring cricketer’s point of view: after a day of competitive sport, he would like to get to explore and shop, like any other tourist. In Pakistan, however, security considerations keep him a virtual prisoner in his hotel.

In other countries, visiting sportsmen go off to pubs, clubs and parties; they shop for presents; and when they are at the seaside, they go to the beach. None of these normal activities are possible in Pakistan. So unsurprisingly, many tours are now routinely cancelled on security grounds, and the players probably heave a sigh of relief.


One result of this sporting isolation is that our standards are falling sharply. And rather than playing tough matches against visiting teams, our players are embroiled in endless inquiries into their conduct. In fact, I doubt if there’s another cricket team in the world with greater disciplinary issues than ours. In a way, this is a reflection on the general environment of decline and lawlessness that has come to characterise us.

We constantly complain that Muslims are discriminated against by the rest of the world, but we refuse to see what a laughing stock we have reduced ourselves to by our own actions. Recently, a publisher’s house was firebombed in London because he was about to print a novel called Jewel of Medina. This book has still not seen the light of day, so the attackers could not have possibly read it. And yet they were willing to kill or wound a person for daring to agree to print it. I have little doubt that when the book does appear, it will offend many Muslims.

By rioting, raving and ranting against material deemed to be offensive, Muslims do not do themselves any favours. The entire Rushdie episode, for instance, was far more damaging to Muslims than it was to the author or his publishers. The manner of protest over the Danish cartoons did not harm either the offending newspaper or the cartoonist.

Any day of the week, it is easy to watch a TV show or a stand-up comedy act in England that people belonging to, say, the Christian faith may find offensive but nobody gets worked up and threatens the artists involved. Occasionally, Ofcom, the watchdog for the media, gets a complaint from a Christian group, and it investigates to see if its guidelines have been breached. But the Vatican or the Church of England do not issue fatwas demanding that somebody should be murdered for a work of literature.

More and more, Muslim societies are being seen as intolerant, violent and irrational. And more and more, Muslims around the world seem determined to prove their detractors right. Instead of introspection and self-analysis, we are forever condemning the rest of the world for our plight, our isolation and our image. This paranoia feeds our perpetual state of self-righteous indignation.​
 

WhatisRight

School Boy/Girl Captain
Talking to the Taliban enemy

Suddenly there is a flurry of diplomatic activity instead of the usual military activity on the Afghan front. Exactly seven years after the US invasion of Afghanistan, the deteriorating security situation in the country is prompting a review of the strategies that have failed to hand over victory to the vastly resourceful NATO forces against the ragtag Taliban militia. Unbelievably, there is a military standoff despite the fact that the lightly-armed Taliban guerrilla fighters in terms of firepower should have been no match for the world's only superpower and the best Western armies.

Having declared the Afghan war unwinnable, some NATO military commanders want to engage the Taliban not on the battlefield but at the negotiating table. There is talk of negotiations with the Taliban and even offering them a share in the Afghan government as part of a political settlement. In the words of the head of the US Central Command, General David Petraeus, America should be prepared to talk to its enemies.

This is a sea change in the views of the Western nations that followed, or were rather arm-twisted, by the US to send troops to Afghanistan to fight the supposedly common enemy, Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. Until now, they seemed determined to defeat the two radical Islamic groups and extend the writ of President Hamid Karzai's weak government to all corners of Afghanistan. Now the emphasis is shifting and the game plan is to bring the Taliban on board and wean them away from Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda. The outcasts of yesterday, after being demonised to no end, are being lobbied hard and Saudi Arabia is being requested to use its wealth and holy charm to rope them in. This is pragmatism and it is a lesson for those of us here in Pakistan who never tired of talking in terms of crushing the enemy, only to end up further damaging our own cause.

On paper and in the conventional military sense, this was an unequal battle. The Taliban had been defeated after a few weeks of fighting in late 2001 and its leaders, including the movement's founder Mulla Mohammad Omar, made to run for their life. Taliban obituaries were being written and self-serving military strategists, including our own Gen Pervez Musharraf, were heard commenting that the Taliban can never fight a guerrilla war. The US had used its military prowess to rule Afghanistan's skies and install a lightweight, English-speaking Pakhtun politician Hamid Karzai into power. The fractious Northern Alliance, after years in the wilderness, was equipped and enabled not only by the US but also by Russia, Iran, India, France and Turkey to become a major political player in Afghanistan's post-Taliban power set-up.


http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=140334
 

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