***Official*** West Indies in New Zealand

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

And was that "abuse" all from NZ media? Read some of the Windies media. It is just has critical. If not more so.

I assure you that I've read far more from the West Indians than the Kiwi papers. The West Indian reporters almost never abuse the West Indies team. Rather, it's almost always a lament.

 

[honestbharani]

All Lara said was that he was disappointed at the way his team has been written off and questioned about its Test status... I don't think he had to necessarily bring up the history of NZ and WI cricket. Guessing from the responses here itself, it shows that it is a rather touchy issue for the Kiwi fans. But hey, he may have been equally roused by what he must have felt were derogatory remarks in the media. I guess it was a mistake, but to compare it with the idiotic stuff of Ponting or anyone is just even more of a mistake.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Lara's sure sounded arrogant...

That's my point.

Well if the West Indies played with half the fire supposedly comprised in Lara's words, it would not have been a 4-1 result. I think that's the whole point of it all.

 

[sirjeremy11]

Well if the West Indies played with half the fire supposedly comprised in Lara's words, it would not have been a 4-1 result. I think that's the whole point of it all.

Granted. If the Windies get as fired up about it as I am, this could be intersting contest...

I hope so. While I hope we win, I don't want to see the Windies fold meekly as they have done recently. It's sort of sad to be honest. They used to be a terrific team, and they still have great talent, especially in the batting.

Still, nothing would please me more than a 5fer from Bondy.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Maybe not way superior, but I could not imagine the Australians getting 29 runs off Giles in an ODI. Unless maybe he only bowled two or three overs.

I'm not saying Vettori is an all time great here. He is just less crap then Giles.

Is that how we judge the quality of spinners? 29 runs against Australia? Interesting...


EDIT: I don't get it... Vettori never bowled for a spell of 29 runs against Australia...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Granted. If the Windies get as fired up about it as I am, this could be intersting contest...

I hope so. While I hope we win, I don't want to see the Windies fold meekly as they have done recently. It's sort of sad to be honest. They used to be a terrific team, and they still have great talent, especially in the batting.

Still, nothing would please me more than a 5fer from Bondy.

Fidel Edwards said that New Zealand won that series as much as the West Indies contrived to lose it. He may be on to something.

Sarwan said that the West Indies lack "game awareness" or something of the sort. The problems have been identified as mental, because it's certainly not a lack of talent. The goal now is to fix them... or at least patch them up until they can be fixed.

The biggest blow is that Bravo won't bowl in the Test series. He may play as a specialist batsman though. King seems to be hinting at that, as well as Ganga opening with Gayle ahead of Devon Smith.

 

[Kippax]

Fidel Edwards said that New Zealand won that series as much as the West Indies contrived to lose it. He may be on to something.

To be fair, when hasn't that been said about a loss to NZ.

We're well known as the 'computer player' of world cricket - because we have very few world-class stars and not many problems with team unity, matches are just about always viewed as there to either be won or lost by our opponents.

Therein lies a core reason for the arrogance from our media IMO; good discipline and tidy fielding is taken for granted here, as they don't see our national side as capable of having any special traits. The rest of the world often tells us as much.

 

[Macka]

Let's just forget about Vettori while we're at it too...

Vettori is indeed Gilesesque... I doubt the West Indies are worried about him on an Eden Park wicket or even a wicket in this country. Remember that 3-year period or so when Vettori basically did nothing? Someone mentioned "Who else would have done a better job?" Well, probably another seemer. Look at Vettori's average; Vettori is... well, average.

Pretty sure Macka was alluding to the theory of Fleming being willing to open if it gets his best friends in the side (McMillan, Astle in the past), but not others (Sinclair, Vincent).

Yes. And Fleming opening against England was the best choice he's ever made. (But then we had Astle, McCullum, Styris, and Fleming batting at 3 in that series. It's about time the selectors blooded top-order players like Fulton.) Fleming *should* be opening in my view. Fleming not opening against Bangladesh because we were about to play Australia is one of the weakest decisions I can remember. Sure, he did very poorly against Australia opening, but he was negative from the start.

I simply don't understand why the selectors sacrifice younger players at the top of the order when Fleming should be the one opening for his team. It should be Fleming making the sacrifices at the end of his career, not younger players that have more to offer long term. Fleming will always be remembered as an average player but a good captain. We have a myriad of middle-order players. It's about time Fleming stepped up.

 

[Blaze]

I still regard Fleming as our premier batsman. I understand what you are saying Macka and I know a lot of people feel the same way but IMO it is just stupid to expose your best batsman to the new ball.

It would be like Australia opening with Ponting because they couldn't find any decent openers.

 

[sirjeremy11]

EDIT: I don't get it... Vettori never bowled for a spell of 29 runs against Australia...

Um. Ok. What about this...

http://nz.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2005-06/AUS_IN_NZ/SCORECARDS/AUS_NZ_ODI1_03DEC2005.html

And this...

http://nz.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/OD_TOURNEYS/TVS/SCORECARDS/AUS_NZ_TVS_ODI7_09NOV2003.html

And this...

http://nz.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2...ECARDS/POOL1/AUS_NZ_ICCCT_ODI4_15SEP2002.html

Not to metion the three times he has gone for 31 off ten. But let's not quibble

 

[sirjeremy11]

Is that how we judge the quality of spinners? 29 runs against Australia? Interesting...

You think a rubbish bowler can go for figures like that against a strong batting line up when all the other bowlers are getting hammered? That, too, is interesting...

 

[NZTailender]

Vettoori is 27 isn't he? Or turning 27? Am i the only one who feels he's probably got his best cricket ahead of him?

 

[marc71178]

Let's just forget about Vettori while we're at it too...

Are they raging turners then?

 

[marc71178]

I always find it interesting when people bag Vettori because I think "Who would have done a better job than him over the last ten years?". The times he was injured show you that the answer is no one. Sure, statistically he may not be very impressive, but if with him we have a second rate spinner (as an example), what would we have had without him.

LOL - I think England could easily say the exact same about our SLA who bats at 8

 

[Blaze]

LOL - I think England could easily say the exact same about our SLA who bats at 8

Except Giles is second rate...

 

[James]

Let's just watch that this doesn't become a Vettori v Giles thread, much like Warne v Murali, etc, etc.

 

[NZTailender]

LOL. That'd be hilarious.


"Yeah, but Vettori is better because he manages to average under 50 vs such and such"

 

[Smudge]

There have been questions over the Test status in recent times, and with the sort of media abuse that the West Indies received during the latter half of that ODI series, it only served to add to the fire.

Such as?

 

[Macka]

I still regard Fleming as our premier batsman. I understand what you are saying Macka and I know a lot of people feel the same way but IMO it is just stupid to expose your best batsman to the new ball.

It would be like Australia opening with Ponting because they couldn't find any decent openers.

If Fleming is going to be an average player, which he definitely is, he might as well be average opening. I don't agree with your Australia comment... they do have a lot of options for openers. Guys like Hussey and Jacques would be quality Test openers. I don't think we're in the same boat: Papps, J. Marshall, and Cumming are all obviously, in my view, not up to Test standard, let alone opening Test batsman standard.

Now we have comments coming from Bracewell and Marshall that "batting at 3 is close enough to opening". But wait... where has Fleming batted a lot during his career, and averaged the most out of any position he's batted in? I should probably stop writing now or I'll ramble

 

[Sir Redman]

If Fleming is going to be an average player, which he definitely is, he might as well be average opening. I don't agree with your Australia comment... they do have a lot of options for openers. Guys like Hussey and Jacques would be quality Test openers. I don't think we're in the same boat: Papps, J. Marshall, and Cumming are all obviously, in my view, not up to Test standard, let alone opening Test batsman standard.

Now we have comments coming from Bracewell and Marshall that "batting at 3 is close enough to opening". But wait... where has Fleming batted a lot during his career, and averaged the most out of any position he's batted in? I should probably stop writing now or I'll ramble

I don't know why the media (and coaches for that matter) continually come up with that kind of statement. The reality is that there is a far different mentality when opening. Anyone who has opened the batting after previously being in the middle order could tell you that there is you have a completely different mindset - there's a different kind of pressure on you, you feel as though you're defining the tone of the whole innings, you don't get a rest during the change of innings, you have to assess the pitch conditions, atmospheric conditions, whether the ball's swinging, how each bowler is bowling...the list goes on.

Number 3, on the other hand, can often get a long rest in between innings, gets told who's swinging the ball what way and how quick the pitch is playing, comes in generally when the ball is moving less etc etc etc.