**Official** West Indies in England Thread

[Tom Halsey]

If the West Indies bat to the close tomorrow and we see at least 90 overs, they will win. That comment indicates that England are almost certain to win.

Which they are.

I'm sorry, but I can't see them surviving on that pitch now for a whole day, and chase a record score. The pitch is playing all sorts of tricks now.

 

[marc71178]

Playng for a draw isn't easy if you have men around the bat, and Giles around the wicket, on this truning surface.

It can't turn outside the subcontinent?

 

[marc71178]

Are you forgetting that Lara's there and Gayle and Chanderpaul are in touch.

Are you forgetting that 478 is a World Record by a long way?

 

[Swervy]

If the West Indies bat to the close tomorrow and we see at least 90 overs, they will win. That comment indicates that England are almost certain to win.

For me,and England win is the most probable result if 90 overs are bowled, other than that I cannot see it being anything other than a draw.

I will stick my neck out here and say there is no way on earth WI will win this game

 

[marc71178]

im not watching the game but his 2 innings in the match it does appear like flintoff is trying to slog everything out of the park.....i wonder how long it will take flintoff to realise that even if he plays his natural game, he'll still end up going at a run a ball on this wicket.

First innings was crazy - from his recent batting efforts, it seems to me he was told to go out and hit (for some bizarre reason)

Second innings was the perfect thing to do in the scenario, quick runs.

 

[Tom Halsey]

It can't turn outside the subcontinent?

Is that a sarcastion comment that is an impression of Richard, or what?

If not, OMari Banks was getting serious turn, plus Ashley Giles is too.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

For me,and England win is the most probable result if 90 overs are bowled, other than that I cannot see it being anything other than a draw.

I will stick my neck out here and say there is no way on earth WI will win this game

Clearly you didn't see a minute of the 418 chase last year. West Indian batsmen are not blockers. If they somehow bat all day tomorrow, they'll win UNLESS they have 7+ wickets down with at least an hour to go.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Which they are.

I'm sorry, but I can't see them surviving on that pitch now for a whole day, and chase a record score. The pitch is playing all sorts of tricks now.

Not really. It's still pretty good for batting as indicated by the fact that the West Indies bowled well in the 2nd innings and still conceded so many runs. Yes, we were without Best, but the pitch didn't do much but for the odd ball every 8 or 9 overs.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Is that a sarcastion comment

A what?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Are you forgetting that 478 is a World Record by a long way?

Now I'm not saying the West Indies will win, but what I will say is that this is cricket and you shouldn't take a result for granted.

Look at the 2001 2nd Test between Australia and India, the 1999 3rd Test between Australia and the West Indies, the 2000 Lord's Test between West Indies and England, Astle's masterclass double, Gilchrist and Langer against Pakistan in 2000 (?).

No one gave us a prayer of chasing 418 last year and we did it fairly comfortably in the end. My point is that I'm sure Vaughan and his men won't be going in to tomorrow with thoughts of an automatic win. They've still got to dismiss the three-time world record holder and statisically, the greatest West Indian batsman as well as a man who score a brilliant unbeaten ton in the 1st innings and has 11 others. Plus there's the gutsy Bravo, Jacobs and Banks to come.

It's not over until it's over...

 

[Langeveldt]

I don't know what Chris Gayle was doing today... To be honest, in that kind of situation an 80 off 100 balls is not as useful as a 50 off 200 balls... I don't know what kind of deluded attitude is instilled in their batsmen if they were going for the run chase immediately!

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

What's to say that Lara would definitely have stayed in a long time just because he had been in good form previously?

Nothing, 'tis cricket. However he did look totally unperterbed and extremely determined at the crease.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I don't know what Chris Gayle was doing today... To be honest, in that kind of situation an 80 off 100 balls is not as useful as a 50 off 200 balls... I don't know what kind of deluded attitude is instilled in their batsmen if they were going for the run chase immediately!

Chris Gayle wasn't chasing runs, he was being Chris Gayle. It is clear that you haven't a clue as to how Gayle plays, so I'll spare you.

Gayle is an attacking batsman by nature and generally gets himself into more trouble when he defends constantly for 2 reasons:

1/ His defence isn't as good as his attack due to lack of foot movement.
2/ He gets bogged down and would eventually self-destruct with a big shot.

Yes, he's played some largely more responsible innings lately, but more often than not he gets out cheaply when looking purely to defend. Simply put, he's a natural attacker and is at his best when playing shots.

Besides, it wasn't attack that got him out this time around.

 

[marc71178]

Shame I missed it, from what I've read, him vs Harmison was a really good spectacle!

 

[badgerhair]

Clearly you didn't see a minute of the 418 chase last year. West Indian batsmen are not blockers. If they somehow bat all day tomorrow, they'll win UNLESS they have 7+ wickets down with at least an hour to go.

I'd agree with your assessment that if WI bat all day, they will win, as well as with your assessment that it is unlikely they will survive that long - precisely because WI batsmen are not blockers.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[badgerhair]

Shame I missed it, from what I've read, him vs Harmison was a really good spectacle!

It was. I'm glad I managed to get to the ground in time to see it.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Chris Gayle wasn't chasing runs, he was being Chris Gayle. It is clear that you haven't a clue as to how Gayle plays, so I'll spare you.

Gayle is an attacking batsman by nature and generally gets himself into more trouble when he defends constantly for 2 reasons:

1/ His defence isn't as good as his attack due to lack of foot movement.
2/ He gets bogged down and would eventually self-destruct with a big shot.

Yes, he's played some largely more responsible innings lately, but more often than not he gets out cheaply when looking purely to defend. Simply put, he's a natural attacker and is at his best when playing shots.

Besides, it wasn't attack that got him out this time around.

Well i think it was attack that contributed, he was obviously putting his weight on the back foot so he could play more cuts at the shorter balls, then he got owned by little foot movement when harmi threw in the yorker.
Also Flintoff is as attacking as they come and even he has shown lately that you dont have to throw the bat at everything and still score at a good rate.

 

[Revelation]

WI need another 364 runs tomorrow in a minimum of 98 overs. (RRR=3.71)

This means about 122 runs per session, usually considered on the higher end of scoring in a Test. However, if WI go into the final session with 5 wickets or more and the equation reads something like 100 from 20 overs (RRR=5.00)[meaning that they would have scored 264/78 =3.38 during the day] I think they'd go for it. Scoring those runs tomorrow means a couple things:

1. Lara and Chanderpaul cannot get out early. They are the only ones who can genuinely manipulate the bowling as well as being two of the best players of spin in the world.

2.One of Lara or Chanderpaul must be agressive while NOT getting out. Now, you don't need a rocket scientist to tell you how hard that is on a day 5 wicket.

Why I think WI can get it:

1. Apart from the odd snorter, the pitch is playing much to the batsman's liking as Gayle and Vaughan showed today

2. A WI team, not dissimilar to this chased a WR 418 vs the World champions in 2003. Given that that record was on home soil, but I think that this won't make too much of a massive difference

3. Shiv Chanderpaul: one of the stars of WI 418 last year, he's coming off an unbeaten hundred in the first innings. He's averaging 44.03 in Test cricket now and apart from the chance given today, he doesn seem sound

4. Brian Lara: Contributed two 50s to WI 418. With a track record of 400* and 120 in the last 3 Tests as well as the epic 213 and 153* in winning causes for WI Lara has shown that once he gets support, the outcome of the match is never in doubt. He also came with stated intention of scoring a Test ton at Lords, a feat he is yet to sccomplish in what will more likely than not be his final test at the MCC. He's probably also eyeing Test 10,000 a number he's currently 148 away from.

4. Omari Banks:Played a vital hand of 47* in WI 418 last year. Has shown that he's good for 40-odd and for sticking around.

5.Underdog status: WI are expected to lose

Why i think they can't:

1. England's won 6 of the last 7 with the other drawn. They know how to finish things

2. Vaughan declared. Won't it be a bite in the @$$ if he didn't win it?

3. Steve Harmison:7/12. Need i say more?

4. Ashley Giles: Pitch is turning and he's shown that he can turn it.

5. Scoring 478 means another world record, beating the previous by 60 runs. You beat a world record like that by 1, 10 or,as Lara 400 did, by as much as 20 runs. 60 is taking it to another level.

6. Underdog status: WI are expected to lose. They've shown time and again that that's one expectation fo which there isn't much variance.

All that being said, IF WI get there, it'll go down as a epic, and what better place to do it than Lords? It would also be another BC Lara moment if he can manage to get WI there unbeaten or just out at the end of play.

So who's my money on for tomorrow? Well my money's on England but my heart's on WI.

 

[Swervy]

Now I'm not saying the West Indies will win, but what I will say is that this is cricket and you shouldn't take a result for granted.

Look at the 2001 2nd Test between Australia and India, the 1999 3rd Test between Australia and the West Indies, the 2000 Lord's Test between West Indies and England, Astle's masterclass double, Gilchrist and Langer against Pakistan in 2000 (?).

No one gave us a prayer of chasing 418 last year and we did it fairly comfortably in the end. My point is that I'm sure Vaughan and his men won't be going in to tomorrow with thoughts of an automatic win. They've still got to dismiss the three-time world record holder and statisically, the greatest West Indian batsman as well as a man who score a brilliant unbeaten ton in the 1st innings and has 11 others. Plus there's the gutsy Bravo, Jacobs and Banks to come.

It's not over until it's over...

I appreciate that you cant take anything for granted, but this is just a bit too much...

First off, I would still doubt that WI are going to make a serious bid for victory here, unless in the first 15 overs tomorrow they can put on another 100 without any loss of wicket...you have to remember this is the first test of a 4 game series...WI do not want to lose this match...a draw will almost be a moral victory after England ripped them on the first day so much.

To compare with other matches...the chasing 418 vs Australia..well WI had so much more time in which to do that, and really didnt have anything to lose being 3-0 down in the last test...and also its a whole 60 runs less to chase,which makes a huge difference as well.

Australia chasing that 360 odd vs Pakistan a few years back after being 126 for 5....a couple of points there,Australia didnt have to chase such a big score,and with 5 wickets left they needed 230 with plenty of time left, so in effect Gilchrist and Langer could play their natural game without time constraints,and also from that position, just one good session would almost have meant Australia were back in the driving seat....in this game, WI need to have a sustained period of astonishing batting, ie a day and a session...well the session didnt go too well, and they HAVE to score at over 4 an over to win.

Astles double century was in circumstances in which NZ had no chance of victory and all pressure was off, as no-one had any expectations of a NZ win..eventually Astle was going to get out (and again a draw wasnt an option, as there was so much time left)...or if not the injured Cairns was.

In my opinion, WI would be foolish to go for these runs, coz if they do, they WILL lose the game.

 

[Swervy]

actually the one time i can remember a team chasing a big target and succeeding with not much time to go was WI vs Eng in 84,when Greenidge scored a double,and the WI batting amazingly well and England bowled awfully.

If WI were to win tomorrow, I would say who ever scores a big hundred(proably at least 180) (so really it has to be either Lara or Chanderpaul) it would probably considered the greatest innings of all time....but it aint gonna happen