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***Official*** West Indies in Australia

Mr Mxyzptlk

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vic_orthdox said:
Will they televise the West Indian tail drawing straws to see who'll bat 8-11 this Test?
In his defence, Powell has a bit of talent with the bat. He's no Tino Best ( :blink: ), but he ain't the worst. Fidel Edwards also showed that he is competent enough technically to defend the likes of Shane Warne. Sadly, he appears to have the brain of a number 11, which negates any technical prowess.

The problem with West Indian tailenders is more when they attempt to play shots than to defend.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
As explained earlier, Powell has been the best new ball bowler for the West Indies all year. The reason Edwards shared it with him is because of his extra pace, and the fact that he's generally useless with the old ball.
oh well that fair enough..., btw liam your contry is weird but its still cool :cool:
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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aussie said:
oh well that fair enough..., btw liam your contry is weird but its still cool :cool:
Sorta cool I suppose. More dangerous than weird. I'll open up a tourism thread over Christmas.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Eclipse said:
I've seen him swimg the ball ALOT!! more than that in Pure Cup matches.. way way way more actually..

you just don't know as much as you would like to think you do
thats not my point at all, i havent said that bracken cant swing the ball any more or less than he did against the WI. my point is that he needs the conditions to favor him significantly to swing the ball marginally, in other words hes not a natural swinger of the ball.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
FaaipDeOiad said:
Yes, but he is better at it today. He swings it more consistently, with better accuracy, and in more conditions. That's the point.
well hes yet to prove that hes better at it today. just because hes been swinging the ball occasionally at the Gabba doesnt mean that he'll swing it all over the world.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
sqwerty said:
Stupid comment again. Who in world cricket is genuinely swinging the ball both ways anyway?...and if so - big deal !
umm any half decent swing bowler swings the ball both ways. Hoggard, Simon Jones, Shaun Pollock and a few others can swing the ball both ways. of course there are plenty of others who have succeeded without swinging the ball both ways, but thats generally because they had plenty of other variations in their bowling that helped them succeed. Bracken other than swing has none.

sqwerty said:
When you can bend the ball 2 feet like Bracken or Hoggard or whoever why would you need to swing it the other way?.......unless you're bowling to someone with a 3 foot wide bat.
because quality players have no problem adjusting to the swing when it only does it one way? even if you look back at the Ashes the main reason why Australia struggled was because they couldnt pick which way the ball was swinging....
 

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
tooextracool said:
Hoggard, Simon Jones, Shaun Pollock and a few others can swing the ball both ways
I would have thought more that Hoggard and Pollock move the ball both ways, rather than swing it both ways.

Anyways, it's a different ball game as a left-armer, you don't need to swing it away from the right hander IF you are swinging it into him regularly. Because he'll have to play at you if you slide one across, and if it decks away it's even more effective than swinging it away, because the batsman would have time to adjust.
 

howardj

International Coach
Top_Cat said:
You'll have to enlighten me as to the purpose of picking a 27 year-old Hopes ahead of a not-too-much older Hodge.

You pick your best team first.
Regarding your first point, have a look at Australian Test batsmen over the last 15 years or so. Virtually all of them - Blewett, Elliot, Slater, Langer Hayden, Ponting, Martyn, MWaugh, Bevan etc - have come into the team, been found out within 2 years and have been dropped. Subsequently, they've gone back to the domestic game, and most have come back into the team at a later stage and then enjoyed easily the most fruitful part of their careers.

You'll notice that all of those batsmen mentioned above, were picked in their early to mid twenties. Therefore, they had time on their side to make the necessary improvements to their games and come back better players. By contrast, if you pick a 30+ player, most likely - as happened to all of the aforementioned batsmen - they will be found out within a couple of years, but won't (unlike the batsmen above) be afforded the opportunity of returning to the side as better players. I mean, how many guys get dropped at 32 or 33, and then return to the side? This is why Im so strongly opposed to picking guys like Brad Hodge and Mike Hussey. No other reason.

As for your second point, I don't agree that it's as simple as picking your best side. I mean, what would have happened if England applied that principle to Flintoff position in the team from 2001-2003? Or Australia applied it to Warne in the embryonic stages of his career, or to Healy etc. It's never a matter of just picking your best team, regardless.
 
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social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
vic_orthdox said:
I would have thought more that Hoggard and Pollock move the ball both ways, rather than swing it both ways.

Anyways, it's a different ball game as a left-armer, you don't need to swing it away from the right hander IF you are swinging it into him regularly. Because he'll have to play at you if you slide one across, and if it decks away it's even more effective than swinging it away, because the batsman would have time to adjust.
Correct.

Hoggard bowls predominantly outswing with a straight ball (bowled as a quickish off-spinner) for variation whilst Pollock is a seam bowler rather than a swing bowler. Jones swings the new ball away but only moves it both ways when reversing.

Bracken has a big advantage over Hoggard and Pollock in that he is both taller and quicker plus left-handed.

This is not to say that he is as good as the other 3 (although Hoggard is, imo, pretty ordinary in anything but favourable conditions).

Anyway, the jury is out until he performs consistently at test level but the first test was very promising.
 
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Top_Cat

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i maybe harsh, but im extremely fair, and i dont jump up and down about a player after a few good performances.
Yeah but you sure jump on them quickly after a few failures.

You'll notice that all of those batsmen mentioned above, were picked in their early to mid twenties. Therefore, they had time on their side to make the necessary improvements to their games and come back better players. By contrast, if you pick a 30+ player, most likely - as happened to all of the aforementioned batsmen - they will be found out within a couple of years, but won't (unlike the batsmen above) be afforded the opportunity of returning to the side as better players. I mean, how many guys get dropped at 32 or 33, and then return to the side? This is why Im so strongly opposed to picking guys like Brad Hodge and Mike Hussey. No other reason.
The reasons for selection are different; they're not looked upon as long-term prospects. They're looked upon as short-term players who are playing better than anyone else right now and when a team is going through a bit of a re-build, you can't just let the older regulars retire and fill the team with 4 or 5 players who will be found out (if that assumption rings true). You need players who will do the job short-term whilst the younger players are gradually introduced into the side or there will be 5 years, for example, where the team is well below its best and struggling.

As for your second point, I don't agree that it's as simple as picking your best side. I mean, what would have happened if England applied that principle to Flintoff position in the team from 2001-2003? Or Australia applied it to Warne in the embryonic stages of his career, or to Healy etc. It's never a matter of just picking your best team, regardless.
There's a reason I emboldened the word first and didn't instead say only. Pick your best team first and then look at balance, injuries, etc. afterwards. And then, even with those other considerations, there's no way Hopes should be anywhere near the Test side. Certainly not after he hit one ton last year, only JUST averaged 40 and that was the first season he did. Maybe after a couple of 1000+ runs seasons............

Bolters only come about if they have a seriously breakthrough season OR they fill a dire need which can't be filled by anyone else, which is exactly what the players you mentioned did. There's no desperate need to pick 'an allrounder, any allrounder' just for the sake of having one in the side. With Hopes, you have a guy who is an alright state-level batter and solid bowler. With McGrath, Lee, Bracken and Warne in the side, he won't do much bowling and his batting is not even close to being good enough for an Australian Test number 6 or even 7. Geez, at least Symonds has form with the bat and recent ODI form with the ball.
 

Top_Cat

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Bracken has a big advantage over Hoggard and Pollock in that he is both taller and quicker plus left-handed.
IF he's quicker than Hoggard, it's by only a couple of k's which makes not a jot of difference. As it stands, from what I've seen of both in the last 12 months, they both average in the low 130's. Bracken used to be a bit sharper but he seems to be bowling within himself a bit.
 

howardj

International Coach
Top_Cat said:
There's no desperate need to pick 'an allrounder, any allrounder' just for the sake of having one in the side. With Hopes, you have a guy who is an alright state-level batter and solid bowler. With McGrath, Lee, Bracken and Warne in the side, he won't do much bowling and his batting is not even close to being good enough for an Australian Test number 6 or even 7. Geez, at least Symonds has form with the bat and recent ODI form with the ball.
Like I said above, I was picking it in the context of Gilchrist's remarks that they will maintain the same balance as in the first two Test Matches of the summer. Im not necessarily saying, myself, that I would opt for Hopes. But, if as Gilchrist indicated, they are looking to maintain the same balance, then a guy like Hopes (who the selectors have picked for the ODI's, and have picked for Australia A - in a FC match - is clearly right up there).
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
Sorta cool I suppose. More dangerous than weird. I'll open up a tourism thread over Christmas.
yea dawg that i'll be good, you could talk about the west side & trincity mall, club platinum, asa wright rain forest, san fernando hill etc...
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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aussie said:
yea dawg that i'll be good, you could talk about the west side & trincity mall, club platinum, asa wright rain forest, san fernando hill etc...
It gets much better than Club Platinum. You should've gone to see a band or two... the good ones. Did you head over to Tobago at any stage?
 

sqwerty

U19 Cricketer
tooextracool said:
umm any half decent swing bowler swings the ball both ways. Hoggard, Simon Jones, Shaun Pollock and a few others can swing the ball both ways. of course there are plenty of others who have succeeded without swinging the ball both ways, but thats generally because they had plenty of other variations in their bowling that helped them succeed. Bracken other than swing has none.



because quality players have no problem adjusting to the swing when it only does it one way? even if you look back at the Ashes the main reason why Australia struggled was because they couldnt pick which way the ball was swinging....
Sorry mate...don't know what country you're from but I get the impression you haven't seen much of Bracken.

As for the others -
Hoggard only bowls outies,
Pollock's a seamer
Granted Jones swings it both ways.

Of the 3, Bracken swings it more than any on his day.....and you honestly can't think that the Gabba is the only place where he swings it.

I think you're placing just a weeee little bit too much emphasis on the conditions mate.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Mr Mxyzptlk said:
It gets much better than Club Platinum. You should've gone to see a band or two... the good ones. Did you head over to Tobago at any stage?
na didn't go over to tobago, could see eveything in 1 week, but whats up with the ladies were they hiding at home or what other than in the club and in the mall the nice chicks were few and far between...
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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aussie said:
na didn't go over to tobago, could see eveything in 1 week, but whats up with the ladies were they hiding at home or what other than in the club and in the mall the nice chicks were few and far between...
You clearly didn't get out much. Having been to England for a total of 13 weeks in my lifetime, I think I can safely say that Trinidad has much more attractive women. That said, England has the ***y accent.
 

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