*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[SJS]

I've see you say this before and it's still not true. There's a reason why they're called 'leg-spinners'. Every leggie I've ever seen, face or watched in person, Aussie or not, has attacked leg-stump or just outside.

I mean seriously, with the amount of turn Warnie puts on the ball, what do you think would happen if he went for an off-stump line? Batsmen would just keep missing him. What use would a spin-bowler who does that be? It's not as if Warne only bowls batsmen or has them LBW with the straight ones; he induces plenty of edges to slip and close-catchers on the off-side. For inducing drives, Warne does it plenty of times with his 'defensive' line.

Defensive? Please. Warne is sometimes far too aggressive. In his desire to rip the ball through batsmen, he sometimes forgets to go for the more traditional miscue to the in-field that most spinners aim for at least 60% of their wickets. This, in my opinion, is part of the reason for his lack of success on India in much the same way as Lillee in Pakistan; far too used to seeing the ball pop and fizz so they bowl accordingly with less patience than is demanded on the slower-turners in those countries.

I know TC we have discussed this before. I dont wish to stress a point. Just to state that if a batsman keeps missing your leg break pitched on the off stump there are two things a leg spinner will do and they do it - bowl that inch or two further up, and/or bowl a well disguised wrong one.

The biggest 'catchment area' for a legspinner is when batsmen do drive him and either get an edge or miscue it to anywhere between point to extra cover.

I have no doubt Warne has thought of it but found that he is going to get more wickets with the line he bowls with most batsmen not using their feet then bowling the line I am suggesting. And this is fine. His record shows it is right.

However, when he had trouble with the Indians bowling leg stump line, it would have come in handy to try the conventional line. This is just an opinion.

 

[chaminda_00]

I think you guys will find that the best line of leggies to bowl in Australia, is leg stump, as it increases the chances of taking wickets through the extra bounce. But if a leggie played in the sub-continent, then the best line is on off stump.

 

[SJS]

Flippers are meant to be short though - it's meant to get the batsman into a cut shot and then skid straight on and have him trapped lbw or bowled.

Yes Tom I realise that

I meant real short. Just a bit short makes the batsman go back and the bal;l does the rest. If its too short, the batsman gets more time inspite of the speed off the wicket. But as i said, this West Indian bowler didnt

 

[Tom Halsey]

I've see you say this before and it's still not true. There's a reason why they're called 'leg-spinners'. Every leggie I've ever seen, face or watched in person, Aussie or not, has attacked leg-stump or just outside.

Agreed 100%. As a leggie myself, throwing it up outside off has always been futile for me (it may work for others) because batsmen just leave it and wait for the inevitable bad ball from a leggie - the only way you can really get them out is by them not picking the wrong'un.

Attacking leg stump (especially when it's turning) is for me much more effective because you can slant it across the batsman and spin it back, and get leading edges, etc etc. This is a bit of a disadvantage when bowling the wrong'un, however.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Yes Tom I realise that

I meant real short. Just a bit short makes the batsman go back and the bal;l does the rest. If its too short, the batsman gets more time inspite of the speed off the wicket. But as i said, this West Indian bowler didnt

Fair enough, but I personally didn't think his flippers today were too short.

 

[Jono]

Flippers are meant to be short though - it's meant to get the batsman into a cut shot and then skid straight on and have him trapped lbw or bowled.

Yeah that's the idea of them. You see them and you say "Short pie, I can hit this" and then suddenly its on you before you know it and you're bowled or plumb in front. Its a brilliant ball really.

 

[Tom Halsey]

I have no doubt Warne has thought of it.

He tried it once, dragged it down too short too often, and went back to his normal line. To be honest his failure in India has IMO been due to injuries when he's been there (apart from the most recent tour, I can't remember what his figures were then, but they weren't high 40s or anything).

 

[Hit4Six]

murali is the better bowler statistically, but id go for warne in my personal 11

 

[Jono]

Agreed 100%. As a leggie myself, throwing it up outside off has always been futile for me (it may work for others) because batsmen just leave it and wait for the inevitable bad ball from a leggie - the only way you can really get them out is by them not picking the wrong'un.

Attacking leg stump (especially when it's turning) is for me much more effective because you can slant it across the batsman and spin it back, and get leading edges, etc etc. This is a bit of a disadvantage when bowling the wrong'un, however.

Yeah that's true, I also do that when I bowl my leggies on match day (Wow we sure have a few leggies here, Warne has been inspirational ). I don't have a very good wrong'un anyway, due to a lack of control with it, but I feel much more comfortable bowling a leg stump to middle & leg stump line and letting the turn do the work.

Lefties on the other hand, I love pitching it outside off stump to them

 

[Pratters]

I think you guys will find that the best line of leggies to bowl in Australia, is leg stump, as it increases the chances of taking wickets through the extra bounce. But if a leggie played in the sub-continent, then the best line is on off stump.

It has to do with the smaller grounds as well apart from the bounce. Also, the subcontinent, away from the popular notion, is not that great for all kinds of spinners, specially spinners who turn the ball a mile themselves. The uneven nature of the wickets would mean more bad balls than the bowler would like apart from the lack of real bounce. It is not just prodigious turn which specific bowlers want from a pitch.

 

[Pratters]

Yeah that's true, I also do that when I bowl my leggies on match day (Wow we sure have a few leggies here, Warne has been inspirational ). I don't have a very good wrong'un anyway, due to a lack of control with it, but I feel much more comfortable bowling a leg stump to middle & leg stump line and letting the turn do the work.

Lefties on the other hand, I love pitching it outside off stump to them

Wow you are a leggie as well! Join the LSU!!!!!

Thread post count already 110 by the way.

 

[Jono]

Well, he had the wood on VVS during the 2004 tour, and we know how badly he bowled then. Also took the wickets of Sehwag and Dravid cheaply in the Super Test. Ganguly, don't make me laugh. SRT on on the other hand i'll give you that one

Yeah but Laxman was possibly in the worst form of his career during that series. You can't have it both ways, if Warne's failure was due to poor form, than so was Laxman's. He bowled a beauty to get Laxman in the first test, but other than that Laxman was in woeful form and if you can use Warne's poor form as a reason why he didn't destroy the Indians like he did the English and other teams, I too can use Laxman's poor form a reason why he didn't dominate Australia like he did in the past.

 

[Jono]

Out of curiosity, what's Warne's record against India in Australia? I know he didn't play the 2003/04 tour, but how many times have India toured Aus when Warne has bowled? I remember the 1999/2000 tour where India got their butts kicked 3-0, but off the top of my head I can't remember the tour before that.

 

[Tom Halsey]

There was only one series before that which Warne played in (his inauspicious debut series). His record is poor to say the least, but that is due to a poor debut. Take that out and his average is 41 (well it was in the 99/00 series anyway), which still isn't good, but on non-spinning tracks against the best players of spin it isn't too bad.

 

[chaminda_00]

Out of curiosity, what's Warne's record against India in Australia? I know he didn't play the 2003/04 tour, but how many times have India toured Aus when Warne has bowled? I remember the 1999/2000 tour where India got their butts kicked 3-0, but off the top of my head I can't remember the tour before that.

Mat    O       R   W   BBI    BBM     Ave  Econ    SR  5 10
5  195     563   9  4/92   6/113  62.55  2.88 130.0  0  0

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Out of curiosity, what's Warne's record against India in Australia? I know he didn't play the 2003/04 tour, but how many times have India toured Aus when Warne has bowled? I remember the 1999/2000 tour where India got their butts kicked 3-0, but off the top of my head I can't remember the tour before that.

Warne's debut series was against India at home in 91/92, and he took 1 wicket @ 228. He didn't play them at home again until 99/00, when he took 8 wickets @ 41.88, and didn't play them in 2003 either. So in other words, it's crap.

In his defence though, again, Warne's 91 series was his first, and in 99/00 he was in the worst period of his career by a long, long way from his injury at the end of 98 through to 2001/02.

 

[Jono]

There was only one series before that which Warne played in (his inauspicious debut series). His record is poor to say the least, but that is due to a poor debut. Take that out and his average is 41 (well it was in the 99/00 series anyway), which still isn't good.

That's pretty damn poor considering how crap the Indian team was then. Seriously, that was one of the worst Indain teams I've ever seen on the park in my lifetime (Tony Greig labelled the team "Tendulkar/Ganguly" seeing how no one else did anything that whole tour), and he averages only 41. Its no coincidence in my opinion. Indians just play spin bowling well, its a fact. Plus they suck at pace bowling, so of course they're going to take it to Warne, because McGrath so often owns them.

Don't get me wrong Warne is the best spinner I've ever seen IMO, slightly (If i could say just how little in words, I would but I can't... It's like holding my index finger and thumb really close) ahead of Murali but to claim the fact that India have pounded him series after series as a coincidence is clutching at straws, and is an example of people just refusing to believe that the man may actually have a weakness, or not be unstoppable. You just look at the way Sachin and Laxman play him, home and away.

Warne's debut series was against India at home in 91/92, and he took 1 wicket @ 228. He didn't play them at home again until 99/00, when he took 8 wickets @ 41.88, and didn't play them in 2003 either. So in other words, it's crap.

In his defence though, again, Warne's 91 series was his first, and in 99/00 he was in the worst period of his career by a long, long way from his injury at the end of 98 through to 2001/02.

Yeah but come on, the man is a genius but everytime he meets India it shouldn't count because he's injured our out of form or whatever? Seriously.

 

[Top_Cat]

However, when he had trouble with the Indians bowling leg stump line, it would have come in handy to try the conventional line. This is just an opinion.

This is my point; the leg-stump line *is* the conventional line with every leggie I've ever seen or played against and certainly with every coaching manual I've ever read or anecdote from guys like Benaud, Qadir, etc. They all say the same thing; orthodox leggie line is middle-and-leg or leg stump, spinning away to take the edge.

Here's a couple of random google examples searching for 'leg-spin coaching' and such;

http://www.cricketnext.com/coaching/coachbowling/legspinner.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leg_spin

 

[Pratters]

And what would the logic be for Murali's poor record in India.

 

[Jono]

And what would the logic be for Murali's poor record in India.

Yeah exactly, its no coincidence that both of the greatest spinners in modern times have struggled in India. Indians clearly know how to play spin very well, its just a fact. Murali is used to wickets that aid spinners to, and India have many of those yet he still hasn't performed extremely well. I don't think he'll do THAT well when SL play India in the coming test series either. I'd expect (And if I'm wrong so be it) an average around 30-35 odd. Maybe a better average compared to Warne because SL don't have a McGrath or Gillespie to tear them apart (Vaas is good, but not as good as those two were back in 2004) so Murali will have to get the wickets!