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*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

Top_Cat

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And what would the logic be for Murali's poor record in India.
Clearly the man bowls wrist-spin so there you go! :D

As a matter of interest, just about every non-Indian leg-spinner of note has a poor record in India. Abdul Qadir included. Ritchie, on the other hand, does not India were a relatively new Test side when he played against them (1956/57 and 1959/60).
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
Jono said:
Yeah exactly, its no coincidence that both of the greatest spinners in modern times have struggled in India. Indians clearly know how to play spin very well, its just a fact. Murali is used to wickets that aid spinners to, and India have many of those yet he still hasn't performed extremely well. I don't think he'll do THAT well when SL play India in the coming test series either. I'd expect (And if I'm wrong so be it) an average around 30-35 odd. Maybe a better average compared to Warne because SL don't have a McGrath or Gillespie to tear them apart (Vaas is good, but not as good as those two were back in 2004) so Murali will have to get the wickets!
Would the lack of support mean that his average would be higher as he bowls more overs, rather then lower?
 

Tom Halsey

International Coach
IMO it'd make it lower because the batsmen defend him, and attack the rest but it'd be better IMO to attack him because on those spinning wickets he's going to turn one amazingly in the end and get you out anyway, get your runs before that happens.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
chaminda_00 said:
Would the lack of support mean that his average would be higher as he bowls more overs, rather then lower?
Possibly, I was just speculating I really don't have a clue what he'll average obviously and am just estimating. But if you get 6/185 runs bowling heaps of overs, you still end up with a decent average of just above 30. Whilst if you get 2/85 bowling less overs because you have McGrath and Gillespie with you running through the Indian batting order, your average isn't as good despite you going for more runs.

Like I said, maybe I'm wrong. I am very interested in seeing Murali vs. Sachin, Laxman and Sehwag this coming series though. I can't wait.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Jono said:
Yeah but come on, the man is a genius but everytime he meets India it shouldn't count because he's injured our out of form or whatever? Seriously.
Oh, I'm not suggesting it is for a second, but I think you have to look at things reasonably.

There's a lot of factors contributing to Warne's dismal record against India, and only some of them are to do with India playing him extremely well.

The facts are these, in my opinion:
Warne's peaks as a bowler are 93-98 and since his return in 2004. Warne suffered serious injuries in 98 and 2001 that set back his career significantly, and the period between 99 and 2002 was easily the poorest of his career. His averages rose, his variations disappeared, his fitness declined and he was forced to rethink his bowling. Not just India, but also relatively weak teams like the West Indies and England had a decent time against him during his slumps around this time.

Warne did not play India between the 93 Ashes tour and his tour in 98, where he struggled and it was widely acknowledged he was injured. In 99 and 2001, he was in the poorest part of his career, in 91 it was his debut series, and in 2004 he was bowling well but had limited time in cricket since his return from a drug ban, and regardless his performance was much improved.

I don't think you can suggest that Warne at his best would dominate India, because I doubt he would. But, I think he'd be more likely to take 10 @ 30 in 3 tests than 5 @ 50, like in 2004 as compared to earlier tours. And, when people claim as some do that Murali is clearly better than Warne because he's had a better time of it against India, it's worth taking these factors into account.

It's like say Lillee in Pakistan or Murali in Australia for me. It's possible Lillee would have struggled in Pakistan if he'd played a lot there, and same with Murali in Australia, but I doubt their records would look as poor as they do now if more things had gone their way.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Aspects which are as important as to the fact that Indian players are very good players of spin in India are:

The grounds are small
The pitches have very less and uneven bounce

Factors which have contributed to world spinners not performing in India. As I said, Indian pitches are not suited for all kinds of spinners just because they offer turn. Also uneven bounce is not always to the advantage of most spinners. Points made earlier by me.
 
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Top_Cat

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From what I've seen, Indian pitches don't generally allow heaps of purchase either. They seem to absorb a lot of the impact of the ball and it has a 'dead' bounce to it upon pitching. Dunno for sure because I've never played on them. However, I know someone who has; JACK! What's the deal, man?
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
FaaipDeOiad said:
Oh, I'm not suggesting it is for a second, but I think you have to look at things reasonably.

There's a lot of factors contributing to Warne's dismal record against India, and only some of them are to do with India playing him extremely well.

The facts are these, in my opinion:
Warne's peaks as a bowler are 93-98 and since his return in 2004. Warne suffered serious injuries in 98 and 2001 that set back his career significantly, and the period between 99 and 2002 was easily the poorest of his career. His averages rose, his variations disappeared, his fitness declined and he was forced to rethink his bowling. Not just India, but also relatively weak teams like the West Indies and England had a decent time against him during his slumps around this time.

Warne did not play India between the 93 Ashes tour and his tour in 98, where he struggled and it was widely acknowledged he was injured. In 99 and 2001, he was in the poorest part of his career, in 91 it was his debut series, and in 2004 he was bowling well but had limited time in cricket since his return from a drug ban, and regardless his performance was much improved.

I don't think you can suggest that Warne at his best would dominate India, because I doubt he would. But, I think he'd be more likely to take 10 @ 30 in 3 tests than 5 @ 50, like in 2004 as compared to earlier tours. And, when people claim as some do that Murali is clearly better than Warne because he's had a better time of it against India, it's worth taking these factors into account.

It's like say Lillee in Pakistan or Murali in Australia for me. It's possible Lillee would have struggled in Pakistan if he'd played a lot there, and same with Murali in Australia, but I doubt their records would look as poor as they do now if more things had gone their way.
See I understand that, and I'm not discarding those facts. Those are true, but I think at the same time you have you to look at other factors too.

Firstly, as I've pointed out, India in 1999/2000 were rubbish. Gandhi, Kanitikar, MSK Prasad and R Vijay Bharadwaj and Ramesh (He wasn't too bad) were hardly players to fear. Even if Warne was in a horrid period of his career, he should have averaged less against a team with these players. Added on to that Laxman was hardly as good as he became from 2001 onwards (partly because he had to open) and Dravid hasn't been that good against Warne anyway. That leaves Tendulkar and Ganguly.

Secondly, in 2004 you mentioned Warne returning after not playing much cricket. Yet he absolutely dominated Sri Lanka at least 3-4 months earlier in his first test series after the drug ban. If he can destroy SL, he must have been in some form surely? They're no India but they're not exactly bunnies against spin.

In the end... 98, 99/2000, 2001 and 2004. That's 4 tours, it definitely means something. Lillee and Murali are slightly different, whereby Murali hasn't played here enough (due to his own choice which is his fault). That being said, I acknowledge your point and its is possible that Warne's average against India, both home and away, is slightly worse than it should be (hopefully he gets an opportunity to change that) but when Murali and Warne both struggle against India, its a sure sign. And the fact that two people earlier claimed Warne struggling against India is a coincidence is ridiculous and greatly shortchanges just how talented Indian batsman are against spin. Just watch them, its amazing how they play it, better than anyone else around other than Lara in my opinion.
 
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Hazza

U19 Cricketer
chaminda_00 said:
Doosra, off break, arm ball, out swinger, in swinger, off cutter, he could probably bowl a leg cutter though. :p
He can bowl those pretty well (Mike Gatting Ball).
 

chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
Hazza said:
Yes I know but what i'm saying is that the in-drift created was eqivalent to an in-swinger.
there is a major difference between bowling a in swinger and a spinner drifting the ball in. the only real similarity is the direction the ball moves in the air.
 

Hazza

U19 Cricketer
chaminda_00 said:
there is a major difference between bowling a in swinger and a spinner drifting the ball in. the only real similarity is the direction the ball moves in the air.
...which was my original point
 

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