*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[honestbharani]

I knew that his knee was bothering him in the 2nd test, and about the runner, but I didn't know about it carried on to this test. Wonder if that'll be a valid reason to be taken into account, like Warne's injuries?

I think it is more valid than Warne's injuries, because it was obvious. That instance, when Pathan drove the ball back (actually, he patted it back) towards long off, even Ganguly or Laxman would have had the time to move across and field it, but he didn't. It was obvious that he was carrying something and the commentators spotted it straightaway as well, which should point out how visible it was, given the commentary team for this series.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Well said...It's amazing that Murali has done so much with so much against him...something I noticed as well, when he was here for the Super Series, he still had to deal with a LOT of abuse from the crowd...and it wasn't like the banter that you sometimes get when the crowd has a go at a player, it had a maliciousness to it, and was disgraceful. Given he has to put up with stuff like that, it's amazing that he can bowl a ball. I have nothing but admiration for someone like Murali, and unfortunately, brilliant bowler that he is, I cannot say the same for Warne.

Actually, I find Murali somewhat grating as a personality, in a different way to Warne, but comparably. He comes across as self-satisfied and smarmy to me in interviews, and likes to playing up how victimised he is. And, I didn't think much of his decision not to tour Australia because of the hostile crowds or whatever. Kevin Pietersen copped worse than the crowd no-balling him when he went to South Africa, and Australian cricketers get things thrown at them routinely in New Zealand and don't refuse to tour.

Warne is, quite obviously, a bit of a moron, and totally socially inept. He tends to try and avoid the consequences of the things he does wrong, and I'm sure he's the sort of guy I'd think very little of if I met him socially.

On the other hand, I admire Murali's temprament, in most situations, and he's obviously a friendly and amiable sort of guy. I love Warne's sense of theatre, his desire to entertain, and the way he goes about everything he does on the cricket field.

It bugs me a bit the way, in so many of these debates, it's taken for granted that everyone thinks Warne is evil incarnate and Murali is some sort of saint. Both of them have admirable traits and and I appreciate and enjoy them as sportspeople, and both of them do things that irritate me. I'm sure plenty of other people are the same.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

I dont believe that is a factually correct assertion- he carried a niggle in 97 that blew up into a major one after the series and playing the next time with significant match-practice under his belt and recovered from injury. Same case with 2001- he had absolutely no excuse.
I think you are applying the retrosprective light too broadly.
Warne has had a mental block vs India - which is evident from his performance - his work against India has consistently been abyssimal - he rarely succeeds, even in ODIs and its not a question of 'career phases' but more like doing very well one day vs team X and bolloxing up vs IND the very next series.

Why is it that those four years where he played India 3 times were the worst of his career then? It wasn't just India. He had two major long-term injuries, missed tons of cricket (as I said, he bowled 200 overs between the 98 tour of India and the 00 home series), and when he played he was almost unbelievably poor, even getting dropped from the team and struggling against teams like England and Pakistan.

There's no doubt he has a mental problem against India, and that they play him extremely well. However, it is also true that in test cricket he has never had any significant opportunity to turn this round, as he has never been able to play India at anything like his best, until last year.

 

[honestbharani]

Why is it that those four years where he played India 3 times were the worst of his career then? It wasn't just India. He had two major long-term injuries, missed tons of cricket (as I said, he bowled 200 overs between the 98 tour of India and the 00 home series), and when he played he was almost unbelievably poor, even getting dropped from the team and struggling against teams like England and Pakistan.

There's no doubt he has a mental problem against India, and that they play him extremely well. However, it is also true that in test cricket he has never had any significant opportunity to turn this round, as he has never been able to play India at anything like his best, until last year.

Don't you think that the fact that the INdians played him so well might have sown some self doubts into his mind and resulted in that period being the worst of his career?

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Don't you think that the fact that the INdians played him so well might have sown some self doubts into his mind and resulted in that period being the worst of his career?

Maybe, but I think that it's more likely the fact that he completely ruined his shoulder and had to go through a major operation which left him unable to bowl one of the most lethal balls in his arsenal, made him lose his wrong'un and totally rethink the way he bowled had more to do with it. Not to mention damaging the same shoulder again and going through another major operation, and then injuring his finger.

He also had off-field issues, fitness problems, and was dropped from the team, all of which would have hurt his confidence and so on. Whatever reason you like, Warne bowled poorly against everyone in that period.

 

[C_C]

Why is it that those four years where he played India 3 times were the worst of his career then? It wasn't just India. He had two major long-term injuries, missed tons of cricket (as I said, he bowled 200 overs between the 98 tour of India and the 00 home series), and when he played he was almost unbelievably poor, even getting dropped from the team and struggling against teams like England and Pakistan.

There's no doubt he has a mental problem against India, and that they play him extremely well. However, it is also true that in test cricket he has never had any significant opportunity to turn this round, as he has never been able to play India at anything like his best, until last year.

You are drawing parallells that i dont believe are correlated to a great degree.
For one, Warne was not carrying anything more than minor niggles in 97 - in 2001, he was fit as a fiddle. If any doubt can be cast, it is essentially in 99 series, where he'd come back only 7-8 matches before ( though that in itself is good time to get matchfit) but then again, given how easy the OZ pace bowlers made it for Warney, its hard to see how he might've been disadvantaged in any way.

And whatever the cause of his 'loss of form', unless it is directly related to untimely injuries(and i think you are really stretching it with his injuries), it is not excusable, for then everyone's 'poor form' can be excused, their best years picked and be classed 'greats'.

 

[honestbharani]

Maybe, but I think that it's more likely the fact that he completely ruined his shoulder and had to go through a major operation which left him unable to bowl one of the most lethal balls in his arsenal, made him lose his wrong'un and totally rethink the way he bowled had more to do with it. Not to mention damaging the same shoulder again and going through another major operation, and then injuring his finger.

He also had off-field issues, fitness problems, and was dropped from the team, all of which would have hurt his confidence and so on. Whatever reason you like, Warne bowled poorly against everyone in that period.

I think it has a lot to do with his mental stuff. When the guy says that he had nightmares of Sachin hitting him, sorry, even if it was only partly true, it must still have some kind of an effect on the way he bowled at the time. I am no psychologist, but I think that he can hardly have bowled better even if he was as fit as he is today if that was his mindset.

 

[Buddhmaster]

Warnie>>>>Murali, simple as that

end of subject

 

[Jono]

Laxman owns them both though

 

[Hoggy31]

Warnie>>>>Murali, simple as that

end of subject

I'd also like to raise the point that Warne has larger genitals than Murali, battle over...

 

[Jono]

Apparently he's a lously 10 second lay though. If that's the case, what's he doing with those big genitalia?

 

[Buddhmaster]

Apparently he's a lously 10 second lay though. If that's the case, what's he doing with those big genitalia?

Being better then Murali

 

[honestbharani]

the pills had their effect, I guess.

 

[marc71178]

Why are we discussing these 2 when Giles is clearly so much better than either of them?

Average in India:

Giles 33.00
Murali 40.36
Warne 43.11

All hail the King of Spain.

 

[Buddhmaster]

Why are we discussing these 2 when Giles is clearly so much better than either of them?

Average in India:

Giles 33.00
Murali 40.36
Warne 43.11

All hail the King of Spain.

But Giles is English

 

[Tom Halsey]

All of which fell in a 2-3 year period and neither of which were immediately preceeding his games vs India.

Hang on a sec, all of them ovvured 1998-2001 (4 years), and nearly all of his games against India were played then.

 

[Deja moo]

But Giles is English

Exactly. He's brought up on better, nay, proper beer..

 

[Tom Halsey]

For one, Warne was not carrying anything more than minor niggles in 97 - in 2001, he was fit as a fiddle.

You've just admitted he was, saying they were all in a 2-3 year period. That was the 2-3 year period where he played India so much.

 

[C_C]

Hang on a sec, all of them ovvured 1998-2001 (4 years), and nearly all of his games against India were played then.

Argh.
"I farted. The sky is dark. Thefore the sky is dark because i farted."

This is the logic you are using.

2004 - No injury
2001 - Warney wasnt injured
1999 - Returned almost six months before from his operation, played 7 outta 8/9 matches before IND series.
1997 - Minor niggle that blew up into a major injury after the series ( not during the series)
1992 - Newbie.

.... argh!

 

[Tom Halsey]

Yes but it wasnt home condition for the PAK team either- as a result, i think 'neutral' venues should be excluded from 'home and away' discussions.

Why? Because he had a good series?