*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[Tom Halsey]

thats just the media spin on it in Oz to try and explain the maestro's annihilation.
He played the FC matches and the Tests pretty well. He was A-ok for the tests- bowled 160 overs in 3 matches- you CANNOT do that if your under the effects of a so-called career ending injury. He suffered the injury in the ODI tourney that followed it and therefore, his test performance CANNOT be justified by his injury.
Its like Tendulkar playing injured vs OZ in the last series and bolloxing up can be justifiably said to be caused by his injury-playing WITH an injury. But the same injury line cannot be used to justify his batting failure against NZ in IND after 2003 world cup!!
Or if i play 4 tests being fully fit and then tear my rotor cuff in the ODI tourney following it- i cannot use my injury as an excuse for my performance( or th lack of it) in the Tests before i got injured.

So in other words, you can't answer my question - if he got injured AFTER India, then where exactly did he get injured?! He didn't, because he was in hospital. It's pretty universally agreed he was injured.

 

[C_C]

if he got injured AFTER India, then where exactly did he get injured?! He didn't, because he was in hospital. It's pretty universally agreed he was injured.

Argh.
OZ went to India in 98, played 3 tests and 5 or so ODIs. The ODIs were AFTER the tests.
Warne got injured during the second or third ODI.
Which means when he played the tests, he wasnt injured!

 

[Tom Halsey]

Argh.
OZ went to India in 98, played 3 tests and 5 or so ODIs. The ODIs were AFTER the tests.
Warne got injured during the second or third ODI.
Which means when he played the tests, he wasnt injured!

And what makes you so sure of this considering everyone else is agreed that Warne was partially injured before he even got there, and then the tour as a whole just made it even worse?

 

[C_C]

And what makes you so sure of this considering everyone else is agreed that Warne was partially injured before he even got there, and then the tour as a whole just made it even worse?

Because he bowled over 50 overs per match and was getting his spin pretty good. You can play through a shoulder strain and worsen it, but you aint gonna play with a totally bolloxed up shoulder and just biting the pain- your arm wont move the way you want to.
He had a sore shoulder- a routine soreness- that popped shortly after the test series.
So you cant use that as an excuse for his abyssimal performance in the test series.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Because he bowled over 50 overs per match and was getting his spin pretty good. You can play through a shoulder strain and worsen it, but you aint gonna play with a totally bolloxed up shoulder and just biting the pain- your arm wont move the way you want to.
He had a sore shoulder- a routine soreness- that popped shortly after the test series.
So you cant use that as an excuse for his abyssimal performance in the test series.

He wasn't bowling 'pretty good' if he was getting smashed.

The thing about the arm not moving what way you want it to is my exact point - that is what happened, and he got smashed. Still not sure where your proof is that it popped after the Test series.

 

[C_C]

He wasn't bowling 'pretty good' if he was getting smashed.

The thing about the arm not moving what way you want it to is my exact point - that is what happened, and he got smashed. Still not sure where your proof is that it popped after the Test series.

Err no. Did you watch that series ? Warne was spinning the ball like he usually does ( he bowled flippers and wrong'uns too) but he got smashed because like i said- Indian batsmen are excellent off their feet and Warne kept bowling at their feet. Sidhu, Azhar and Tendy butchered him.

How on earth can you use a 'catastrophic shoulder damage' as an excuse when it happens after the Tests ? And how on earth can you turn your arm, spin it a few feet and do it for over 50 overs per match if you have restricted shoulder mobility.
You are stretching the credible - Warne got annihilated because he bowled without much thought and then broke down. Simple as that.

 

[Tom Halsey]

How on earth can you use a 'catastrophic shoulder damage' as an excuse when it happens after the Tests ? And how on earth can you turn your arm, spin it a few feet and do it for over 50 overs per match if you have restricted shoulder mobility.
You are stretching the credible - Warne got annihilated because he bowled without much thought and then broke down. Simple as that.

It's a bit like the recent Tests against WI. He's turning it, and bowling reasonably accurately (but not his usual accuracy), but because he's injured (and probably shouldn't be playing), he's been innefectual. Similar scenario.

 

[C_C]

It's a bit like the recent Tests against WI. He's turning it, and bowling reasonably accurately (but not his usual accuracy), but because he's injured (and probably shouldn't be playing), he's been innefectual. Similar scenario.

Except that wasnt the case. He was turning it and he was accurate in 98. Like i said- Warne's standard ploy is to pitch it outside the rough and spin it across - Indian batsmen relish that against a spinner- even club level ones. Which is why he's rarely had any success against Indian batsmen- in his entire career.

 

[social]

Except that wasnt the case. He was turning it and he was accurate in 98. Like i said- Warne's standard ploy is to pitch it outside the rough and spin it across - Indian batsmen relish that against a spinner- even club level ones. Which is why he's rarely had any success against Indian batsmen- in his entire career.

He neither turned it nor was particularly accurate in that series. Injury or not, he bowled poorly and the Indians capitalised.

 

[C_C]

He neither turned it nor was particularly accurate in that series. Injury or not, he bowled poorly and the Indians capitalised.

I beg to differ - i attended some of those matches in person in that series.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Except that wasnt the case. He was turning it and he was accurate in 98. Like i said- Warne's standard ploy is to pitch it outside the rough and spin it across - Indian batsmen relish that against a spinner- even club level ones. Which is why he's rarely had any success against Indian batsmen- in his entire career.

He's turning it and being reasonably accurate now against the West Indies, too, that was the point (I don't really dispute that he turned it in India).

But because he's been injured on both occasions, he's lacked the zip and been innefectual.

 

[Anil]

He wasn't bowling 'pretty good' if he was getting smashed.

he was bowling "pretty good" and still getting smashed because that's what indian batsmen usually do to spinners, good or bad....all these excuses for his poor figures in india are pretty lame....he himself admitted after the 2001 series that the indian batsmen just completely mastered him....and it is also true that he would probably have reaped a bagful of wickets if he was bowling the same way against england or south africa...

 

[Tom Halsey]

he was bowling "pretty good" and still getting smashed because that's what indian batsmen usually do to spinners, good or bad....all these excuses for his poor figures in india are pretty lame....he himself admitted after the 2001 series that the indian batsmen just completely mastered him....and it is also true that he would probably have reaped a bagful of wickets if he was bowling the same way against england or south africa...

Well then, why were his figures so different in the 2004 series than the 1998 series in particular?

 

[a massive zebra]

Well then, why were his figures so different in the 2004 series than the 1998 series in particular?

I think a previous post of mine answers this question pretty well.

As Jono said, the Indian batting line-up was completely out of form and low on practice, and was also without Warne's nemesis Sachin Tendulkar for 2 out of the 3 tests he played, yet he still ended up as by far the most expensive bowler on the Australian side and by far the most expensive spinner on either side. Not exactly good for someone claiming to be the "best spinner ever", especially considering it was easily his most successful Indian tour out of 4 attempts.

 

[Tom Halsey]

I think a previous post of mine answers this question pretty well.

While maybe they weren't in top form, they didn't do too badly considering the pitch in the last match (which would have caused averages etc to take a hammering), which Warne didn't play in - I'll say it again, if Warne had played in that last match, I'm convinced he'd have averaged around 25 for the series.

 

[Anil]

Well then, why were his figures so different in the 2004 series than the 1998 series in particular?

i think amz has already answered it quite well so i won't repeat what he said....and while his figures were significantly better than the disastrous 2001 tour, it was still very much below his career average....another thing, warne in 2001admitted that they had just played him too well...what i can't understand is why you are fishing for excuses for him when he himself didn't come up with one....

 

[Tom Halsey]

i think amz has already answered it quite well so i won't repeat what he said....and while his figures were significantly better than the disastrous 2001 tour, it was still very much below his career average....another thing, warne in 2001admitted that they had just played him too well...what i can't understand is why you are fishing for excuses for him when he himself didn't come up with one....

Except I'm not talking about 2001.

 

[ryan563]

overall i think warney is the best

 

[dinu23]

I think Murali is the best. but hey, that's just me.

 

[nightprowler10]

One question I'd like to ask, off-topic but, why is it that the best players of spin (India) struggled so much against Kaneria? Note that there is no sarcasm here, just wondering what everyone's opinion on that is since I did not watch that series. Again, I know its off-topic but I'm hoping to get an answer in a couple of posts.