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*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

C_C

International Captain
benchmark00 said:
For someone who has such a self proclaimed excellent grasp of the english language, you really aren't familiar with the definition of race are you?

A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics


Australians are grouped by a geographic parameter... i.e. where theyre from... let me dumb it down for you a bit: from Australia...

Did the latter part of your quote escape your attention ?

the " more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics " part ?

That "local geopgraphic" portion exists in the definition to accomodate minority tribes or areas such as India or China who account for the overwhelming bulk of a particular "race" of people. Australia or Australians dont qualify for a race. Neither does Canada.
Racial definition is fundamentally tied to genetics. Unless you can show an instance of discrimination based on genetic lines ( be it physical features or actual genetic targetting), there is no "race". Simply being a nation does not qualify as a race and therefore, any attack ( perceived or real) on such a nation cannot be constituted as a racist act.
Sean/Faaip is our aspiring Lawyer here - perhaps he can shed some light into this matter.
But from my understanding, saying " Aussies suck " or " Bangladeshis suck" cannot be seen as a racial attack. I can say " Canadians suck" and it cannot be constituted as a racial attack of any sort in Canada.
 

benchmark00

Request Your Custom Title Now!
C_C said:
Did the latter part of your quote escape your attention ?

the " more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics " part ?

That "local geopgraphic" portion exists in the definition to accomodate minority tribes or areas such as India or China who account for the overwhelming bulk of a particular "race" of people. Australia or Australians dont qualify for a race. Neither does Canada.
Racial definition is fundamentally tied to genetics. Unless you can show an instance of discrimination based on genetic lines ( be it physical features or actual genetic targetting), there is no "race". Simply being a nation does not qualify as a race and therefore, any attack ( perceived or real) on such a nation cannot be constituted as a racist act.
Sean/Faaip is our aspiring Lawyer here - perhaps he can shed some light into this matter.
But from my understanding, saying " Aussies suck " or " Bangladeshis suck" cannot be seen as a racial attack. I can say " Canadians suck" and it cannot be constituted as a racial attack of any sort in Canada.
Sean may be the aspiring lawyer but as far as i know he's doing Arts, guess what i'm doing? So as far as i'm concerned, i'm pretty fit to be shedding light on this...
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
benchmark00 said:
Sean may be the aspiring lawyer but as far as i know he's doing Arts, guess what i'm doing? So as far as i'm concerned, i'm pretty fit to be shedding light on this...
God...
 

C_C

International Captain
benchmark00 said:
Sean may be the aspiring lawyer but as far as i know he's doing Arts, guess what i'm doing? So as far as i'm concerned, i'm pretty fit to be shedding light on this...
So, in your words, criticism of Australians constitute as racism.
Even though it doesnt meet the criteria for 'race'.
Right-O !
Anyways,perhaps you have weird laws down there but in most places i've been, nationality is not equated with race.
 

benchmark00

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C_C said:
So, in your words, criticism of Australians constitute as racism.
Even though it doesnt meet the criteria for 'race'.
Right-O !
Anyways,perhaps you have weird laws down there but in most places i've been, nationality is not equated with race.
Mere criticism of nationality isn't racism as such, however, what I call 'harsh generalisations' (to put it lightly) based solely on nationality is.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
KaZoH0lic said:
Warne Denies Attacking Murali For Taking Easy Wickets

Self-explanatory. What does anyone make of these heated issues? Are the press trying to rile everybody up by misprinting and mispresenting? It seems a common thing now to vilify the Australians for any/everything. Is it wrong? Are we really the devils? :devil2:
I SAW IT ON TELLY LIVE !!

I did not read it in print
It was Warne's face, his lips, his voice and all three were in sync !!!
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
SJS said:
I SAW IT ON TELLY LIVE !!

I did not read it in print
It was Warne's face, his lips, his voice and all three were in sync !!!
But Warne isn't in 'N Sync' !! :cool:

The people you are thinking of were Lance Bass, JC Chasez, Joey Fatone, Chris Kirkpatrick and Justin Timberlake...that's five not three in 'N Sync' by the way!

I find it very surprising that they'd have an opinion on Murali's wickets against Bangladesh though :blink:










Nb: Thank you Google!
 

GotSpin

Hall of Fame Member
Son Of Coco said:
But Warne isn't in 'N Sync' !! :cool:

The people you are thinking of were Lance Bass, JC Chasez, Joey Fatone, Chris Kirkpatrick and Justin Timberlake...that's five not three in 'N Sync' by the way!

I find it very surprising that they'd have an opinion on Murali's wickets against Bangladesh though :blink:










Nb: Thank you Google!
Yeah google :sly:
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
honestbharani said:
And you know what I detest about these arguments? The fact that you can't accept that Warne didn't bowl as well as he could have (even considering the shoulder strain) and that Bangladesh actually played him well. I have seen Warne himself bowl better even while carrying a shoulder strain like he did in the 2001 series against India. I brought in Murali in exactly this context. To show that people (and even he himself) have bowled better even while carrying a shoulder strain. Why do you think Warne has to be so immune of being criticized for what was a below par performance, injury or no injury?
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest (god forbid) that there might actually be different levels of shoulder strain...:-O I'm not sure who had what mind you, one of them may have been bowling with half a shoulder while the other one had to deliver it with his tongue.

I'll need that spanner later so kindly remind me where I threw it when this is over.
 
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honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Son Of Coco said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest (god forbid) that there might actually be different levels of shoulder strain...:-O I'm not sure who had what mind you, one of them may have been bowling with half a shoulder while the other one had to deliver it with his tongue.

I'll need that spanner later so kindly remind me where I threw it when this is over.
I am sure there are but if it was that bad, why was Warne bowling in the second innings itself and also playing in the second test? I think the injury did have a part in why he wasn't able to bowl as well as could have, but even given the injury, he did bowl at his best (in the sense that on another day, even with the injury, he would have bowled better) and also Bangladesh played him really well.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
The one other thing I have noticed about QWarne Vs Murali is that, QWarne does tend to get hit around a little more than Murali does, and yet at the same time, QWarne seems to be more able to do the impossible slightly more than Murali. In that sense, it qwill come down to personal preference. QWould you qwant a bowqler wqho qwill take 30 qwickets in 5 tests everytime and not give aqway too many runs, or qwould you take a bowqler qwho qwill give aqway slightly higher number of runs but is also probably gonna take a 35 wqickets in 5 tests.



And sorry about the wqay it is all coming out. My keyboard is sick here and everytime I press 'w', the q gets automatically typed. Sorry about that. :(
 

Son Of Coco

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
honestbharani said:
I am sure there are but if it was that bad, why was Warne bowling in the second innings itself and also playing in the second test? I think the injury did have a part in why he wasn't able to bowl as well as could have, but even given the injury, he did bowl at his best (in the sense that on another day, even with the injury, he would have bowled better) and also Bangladesh played him really well.
I'm sure Bangladesh did play him quite well...the injury may have hurt when it happened but responded well to treatment, he did have a little bit of time between the two innings. It may not have been really bad to start with, but even a fairly minor injury hurts a bit when it first happens I think.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
C_C said:
I tend not to be friendly towards cultures that promote hostility and 'anything goes' mentality amongst its populace in the name of winning.
Sorry, that's a moronic comment. I'll be generous and ascribe it to ignorance...


Now you should know better.
 

Francis

State Vice-Captain
I am sure there are but if it was that bad, why was Warne bowling in the second innings itself and also playing in the second test? I think the injury did have a part in why he wasn't able to bowl as well as could have, but even given the injury, he did bowl at his best (in the sense that on another day, even with the injury, he would have bowled better) and also Bangladesh played him really well.
There was a post of yours, honestB, that I wanted to quote but I couldn't find it. So I'll summarise.

Firstly I think Bangladesh played Warne fairly well. Nobody wanted to give them credit, and while Australia played pretty poorly, Bangladesh did play arguably their best game.

Warne wasn't at his best and it was obvious. His balls weren't hitting the spots and yeah, just obvious he wasn't at his best. Warne was going to miss the 2nd test but wanted to play.

What irks me is how quickly people are unfairly trying to knock Warne because he didn't do as well as Murali. These are people who live and breath on stats and could not care if Bangladesh played great... all they cared about was Warne failing. Stats don't... and will never show how well Bangladesh played in that test. Has Murali ever played Bangladesh when they played that well? Probably not but I don't want to knock Murali.

Lets not forget that it was the batting pitch as well... at least on day one. The pitch held up quite nicely throughout the test.

Another problem is that all cricketers have bad days. One bad test will badly skewer your stats. Warne took 8 wickets in this last test against Bangladesh at an average of 20. If he played 6 tests, like Murali has, against Bangaldesh like that, he'd have 48 wickets against Bangaldesh. 2 less than what Murali has in that time. Yet with one bad test all of a sudden people are jumping all over him.

I also will note that Murali has played most of his tests against Bangladesh in Sri Lanka, where his record is significantly better. If Murali had one bad test against Bangladesh and Warne kept up the wicket-taking he had in this last test. Then they'd be very similar.

This is all a lot of ifs and butts that I'm not interested in. My point is that people are so quick to try and use ONE TEST to prove Murali is superior when I think that's unfair. Just like it's unfair that they use one series in Pakistan, JUST ONE, to criticise Dennis Lillee.

This whole things has gotten out of control. Warne took 8 wickets at 20 today... not too shabby.

This really shouldn't be a Warne/Murali debate. But I just can't write this post without using some comparisons. This is really about people jumping all over Warne after one bad test. This whole Warne vs. Murali debate has made people so annoyed with some points that when something happens they come up with unfair criticisms.

This doesn't just relate to Warne, it relates to Murali. Murali gets unfair criticism when some little thing happens. Like when Murali goes for 1-99 in a ODI. It's just one match! Murali's a gun and has done fairly well against Australia. Yet people say, "oh he can't do it against good competition." Ridiculous.


Look forget all my post and listen to this if it's helps. My simple point is both are great and the swift reactions of some people when there's a failure is getting silly. Both have accomplished so much in cricket that if they sucked for the rest of their career, if their averages went up to 30 or whatever, it wouldn't matter because they've done so much.

So lets tone it down with this debate and not get so heated about every little minimal (and it is small) failure each man has from time to rime. Especially over one match.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Francis said:
Look forget all my post and listen to this if it's helps. My simple point is both are great and the swift reactions of some people when there's a failure is getting silly. Both have accomplished so much in cricket that if they sucked for the rest of their career, if their averages went up to 30 or whatever, it wouldn't matter because they've done so much.
Most Murali fans are fans of Warnie and would like him to do well, Unfortunately same cant be said about Most Warnie fans esp if they are also from the same country.

Murali doesn't go and accuse Warnie of taking cheap wickets or that he takes more lower order wickets after Mcgrath cleans up the top etc etc. (Please note, I am not suggesting that Warnie does, just using a hypothetical example)

Lastly, Skill wise I think Warnie is a better bowler but in terms of wicket taking ability I think Murali is equally good if not better.
 

luckyeddie

Cricket Web Staff Member
honestbharani said:
And sorry about the wqay it is all coming out. My keyboard is sick here and everytime I press 'w', the q gets automatically typed. Sorry about that. :(
Can't you dexlete the errant xletter?
 

C_C

International Captain
benchmark00 said:
Mere criticism of nationality isn't racism as such, however, what I call 'harsh generalisations' (to put it lightly) based solely on nationality is.
First, there was no generalisation. It was a comment about the cultural orientation ( i meant it in cricketing culture sense and i understand why some took it as whole of OZ culture- which is why i clarified later on) of a nation.
As such, you will find that in most of the world, cultural criticism does not equate to racism and even comments based solely on nationality is not racism. Racism pertains to race. You have to take a potshot at a race of people based on racial lines to be considered racist.
 

Francis

State Vice-Captain
Most Murali fans are fans of Warnie and would like him to do well, Unfortunately same cant be said about Most Warnie fans esp if they are also from the same country.
That has not been my experience with Murali fans. While I haven't been slandered by a Murali fan, I have seen some Murali fans get very riled up. They seem to live and breath on stats and anybody challenging their beloved stats with any truths has brought about some terrible slanders.

Murali doesn't go and accuse Warnie of taking cheap wickets or that he takes more lower order wickets after Mcgrath cleans up the top etc etc. (Please note, I am not suggesting that Warnie does, just using a hypothetical example)
If your not suggesting Warne does, why say Murali doesn't accuse Warne etc? Justin Langer said both are very encouraging of one another and have a nice friendly relationship. When the Asian tsunami hit Warne rang Murali up immediately and they both worked toward putting some smiles on many faces. Good stuff.

Lastly, Skill wise I think Warnie is a better bowler but in terms of wicket taking ability I think Murali is equally good if not better.
Meh niether are playing their best these days.
 

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