*Official* Warne vs Murali Discussion

[C_C]

That was a bunch of idiots, what did it have to do with Cricket? If sanctity, safety and all those distinguished traits are so upheld, why are these things slipping by? Read a little, you may actually be fooled enough to think that Ricky Ponting talking to the Umpires or Warne's comments on Murali were worse than riots or fights. Certainly they're getting more attention.

They are getting more attention because they are the stars and the main attraction. The talk is about players. Not about spectators. Like i said, stick to topic please.

 

[Ikki]

They are getting more attention because they are the stars and the main attraction. The talk is about players. Not about spectators. Like i said, stick to topic please.

I'm the one who started this thread and know if what I'm saying pertains to the topic. I'd ask you to stick to the topic, or better yet, not participate.

 

[C_C]

I'm the one who started this thread and know if what I'm saying pertains to the topic. I'd ask you to stick to the topic, or better yet, not participate.

False.
Simply starting a thread does not give you authority to deciede what is and what isnt off topic.
We are discussing players here. Throughout the thread. The behaviour of fans is an alltogether different issue and simply because you started the thread, it doesnt give you the right to confuse issues- unless ofcourse you appropriately adjust the title of the thread and the lead post to indicate as such.

 

[parttimer]

I dare you to put forward ONE single comment I've ever made that is a generalisation pertaining to a race. Or do you, perhaps like some here, fail to differentiate between an illustration and a statement as well ?

Besides, keep your sanctimonious pretend BS to yourself. I note that you consider my distaste for the uncouth Australian team to be 'racist' ( while its worth mentioning that i certainly am not extending it to all 'white' teams like NZ,RSA and ENG as well) but you completely and utterly ignored the 'one rule for the subcontinentals' comment from your buddy social ( which is far more racist in its tone, as it is pertaining to race in much more clear-cut fashion).
So, in short, shut up.

Ok Eazy E, but your not fooling anyone. Your racist undertones are obvious to everyone but yourself. Maybe you need to travel to Australia, and get some1 to show you around and educate you on our culture lifestyle etc, to help alleviate your glaring prejudice and ignorance. Otherwise your hate will eat you up inside. End

 

[Ikki]

False.
Simply starting a thread does not give you authority to deciede what is and what isnt off topic.
We are discussing players here. Throughout the thread. The behaviour of fans is an alltogether different issue and simply because you started the thread, it doesnt give you the right to confuse issues- unless ofcourse you appropriately adjust the title of the thread and the lead post to indicate as such.

At least you're good for a laugh.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Joy, with all due respect mate, you've gone totally off the deep end here. Don't be surprised if very few Australians on this forum give your opinions the slightest credence if you're going to go on defending utter crap as the gospel truth and abandoning logic and reason in favour of blasting the Australian team.

 

[social]

Imran Khan played with a broken ankle right through a test match once- no one whined about that
.
Waqar practically went from the greatest fast bowler ever to chump because of fracturing his spine twice. No one whined about that.
.

BROKEN ANKLE????????

Try stress fracture or hair-line and maybe I'll believe you.

As for Waqar - Lillee survived worse and you give him little credit. Why should we do the same with Waqar?

 

[social]

It is in almost every single sport.
A basketball player yelling '**** you' on a mike causes far more offence (in terms of reaction AND punishment) than him trying to wear illegal sneakers or jump the tip-off.

A NHL player yelling '**** you' causes far more offence than a goalie wearing illegal pads.(though for some strange reason, fighting is okay. go figure!).

Its a standard norm in most sport where behaviour is usually paramount.

So swearing is worse than cheating?

Virtually every adult swears.

Are you trying to tell us that the Banga wk (who hasnt shut up for 2 tests) was incessantly welcoming the Aus players to his country!

Get a grip!

Shahidi is a disgrace - he tried to change the playing conditions ILLEGALLY

Ditto - Malik.

Ditto - Cronje

Tarango was a disgrace because he had nothing else to rely on and was a joke becuse of it.

You cite the NBA and NHL - dont make me puke!

The NBA recently suspended a player for rushing into the stands to defend his wife vs an intoxicated fan (despite the opposition of fans, players, admin, etc to such penalty). Why? Because it was bad tv!

Likewise, it's ok for a NHL player to chop another in the throat with their stick but not to swear. PLEEEEEEAAAASE!

Aus "generally" play hard and fair.

Clean up your own back-yard before criticising anyone else's.

 

[C_C]

Ok Eazy E, but your not fooling anyone. Your racist undertones are obvious to everyone but yourself. Maybe you need to travel to Australia, and get some1 to show you around and educate you on our culture lifestyle etc, to help alleviate your glaring prejudice and ignorance. Otherwise your hate will eat you up inside. End

Hate ?
Try distaste.
Its like bad tasting food- you dont hate it.You just dont think highly of it and cant be arsed about it in the slightest.

 

[C_C]

BROKEN ANKLE????????

Try stress fracture or hair-line and maybe I'll believe you.

As for Waqar - Lillee survived worse and you give him little credit. Why should we do the same with Waqar?

Lillee survived worse ?
Please.
Waqar stress-fractured his back twice. Plus he got his knee bolloxed up pretty bad for the last half of his career.
But the point is not giving 'credit' to waqar,lillee,willis etc etc. ( note how you left the white guy i quoted off the list and then have the gall to accuse me of racism). The point is, a lotta bowlers have been injured FAR more than Warne yet they dont go around tossing their injury as an excuse everytime they perform poorly.

And yes, you are right- Imran had a hairline fracture in his ankle. But it was a complete fracture, which qualifies as a broken ankle.

 

[C_C]

So swearing is worse than cheating?

Virtually every adult swears.

Are you trying to tell us that the Banga wk (who hasnt shut up for 2 tests) was incessantly welcoming the Aus players to his country!

Get a grip!

Shahidi is a disgrace - he tried to change the playing conditions ILLEGALLY

Ditto - Malik.

Ditto - Cronje

Tarango was a disgrace because he had nothing else to rely on and was a joke becuse of it.

You cite the NBA and NHL - dont make me puke!

The NBA recently suspended a player for rushing into the stands to defend his wife vs an intoxicated fan (despite the opposition of fans, players, admin, etc to such penalty). Why? Because it was bad tv!

Likewise, it's ok for a NHL player to chop another in the throat with their stick but not to swear. PLEEEEEEAAAASE!

Aus "generally" play hard and fair.

Clean up your own back-yard before criticising anyone else's.

Swearing and behaviour malfunctions are punished far more severely than rule infringements in sports. That is true for almost all sports barring incidents of doping.
Aus play hard but hardly fair most of the time. There is nothing fair about getting abused in the middle by a few hooligans in the name of 'mental degradation'.
Besides, its not my problem if the OZ board deciedes to look the other way for its fellow matchfixers and conflict of interest cases such as Lillee, Marsh, Warne, Mark Waugh etc.

Despite your pussilanimous vacillations, my initial point remains - the OZ team has been easily the worst behaved team over the last 8-9 years by a country mile and half.
Therefore, any offer of 'fairplay' magnanimity from OZ players is nothing more than yet another attempt to keep their disreputable ways intact. And if OZ players wish to be taken seriously in such offers, they need to put down a good solid few years where they keep their yaps shut and eat the humble pie. Ie, have the cricketing version of 'rehab'.

 

[Sanz]

But how often do you see them take back what they've said or deny saying it altogether? Usually they stand their ground no matter how silly they look. Yet, when they do try to clarify it's left unappreciated. I.E Warne + Ponting = Humble Pie.

Oh so just because they are too arrogant to accept their mistakes most of the times, we ought to appreciate them when they do it, on those rare times ? Sorry pal.

It is about truth, in both instances: Bangladesh and Murali.

Murali has played only 6 tests against BD, Warne has played 2(including the current one). Murali has 50, Warne may end up with max 16 wickets (if he takes all 10 BD wickets). It's not Murali's fault that Warnie was not able to run through BD.

Murali - Gets a good proportion of his wickets from the weaker test nations.

So does Warne, England weren't really a great team in 90s, neither was the Pakistan team he played in Sharjah (immidiately after the world cup 2003).

Both are true and accurate in their scope. It may not be nice to say, but it's definately there.

No it's not true, the fact is it is not easy taking heaps of wickets against Bangladesh especially for a spinner, as Shane has found out the hard way and Harbhajan can testify that as well. If it were that easy Shane wouldn't have his 2nd worst bowling figure in an innings.

My argument is: they're given no leeway to be good. No praise, it's only the worst aspect that's focused on. I'm sure if we got a big enough magnifying glass on other test nations we can dislike what they do too.

Actually it depends on which aussie player you are talking about. If it is a Gilchrist, Hayden, Brett Lee, Justin Langer etc, I think they will get enough leeway to be good. But I dont think players like Slater, Mcgrath, Warne, Ponting etc are going to get that kind of respect due to their poor record. If you include other sports, heck I'll even lay my life down for Pat Rafter, nicest tennis player ever.

 

[Ikki]

Oh so just because they are too arrogant to accept their mistakes most of the times, we ought to appreciate them when they do it, on those rare times ? Sorry pal.

Nevermind appreciating them... ...why the further vilification?

Murali has played only 6 tests against BD, Warne has played 2(including the current one). Murali has 50, Warne may end up with max 16 wickets (if he takes all 10 BD wickets). It's not Murali's fault that Warnie was not able to run through BD.

Plenty of reasons for Murali getting that many. Add one, the opposition aren't really the strongest in the world. Warne is off-form/slightly injured, whatever you want to attribute. It isn't the regular Warne. That should be obvious. If it was THE Warne who's getting knocked back against Bangladesh I'd concede the point, but it isn't. Still, it's pretty decent after the first innings shocker.

So does Warne, England weren't really a great team in 90s, neither was the Pakistan team he played in Sharjah (immidiately after the world cup 2003).

England > Bangladesh

England > Zimbabwe

So if we want to nitpick, obviously those two are still the relative measure. Ok, Warne's opposition weren't #2, but they were still better than Zimbabwe or Bangladesh my friend.

No it's not true, the fact is it is not easy taking heaps of wickets against Bangladesh especially for a spinner, as Shane has found out the hard way and Harbhajan can testify that as well. If it were that easy Shane wouldn't have his 2nd worst bowling figure in an innings.

Macgill 8fer. The rest of the match Warne has done well despite being sub-par. We're going to go in circles. You think Bangladesh aren't easy wickets, I think they certainly are. I think even if they're not EASY, they're the easiest in relative comparison to other nations. That's the point.

Actually it depends on which aussie player you are talking about. If it is a Gilchrist, Hayden, Brett Lee, Justin Langer etc, I think they will get enough leeway to be good. But I dont think players like Slater, Mcgrath, Warne, Ponting etc are going to get that kind of respect due to their poor record. If you include other sports, heck I'll even lay my life down for Pat Rafter, nicest tennis player ever.

Gilchrist reckoned Murali is a chucker. Should we vilify him from that point on? Uh, it doesn't matter mate. #1 team. If they're considered ill-mannered to tout it, I will. #1 team.

 

[Sanz]

Gilchrist reckoned Murali is a chucker. Should we vilify him from that point on? Uh, it doesn't matter mate. #1 team. If they're considered ill-mannered to tout it, I will. #1 team.

Well there shows the arrogance of the no. 1 team. It matters whether you are a no. 1 team or a no. 10 team, I dont pick on players because they are from no. 1 team. And no, you dont see me vilifying Gilly, Do you ? It depends on the individual mate and not which country he is from. Atleast not me, I definately cant speak for others.

 

[Ikki]

Well there shows the arrogance of the no. 1 team. It matters whether you are a no. 1 team or a no. 10 team, I dont pick on players because they are from no. 1 team. And no, you dont see me vilifying Gilly, Do you ? It depends on the individual mate and not which country he is from. Atleast not me, I definately cant speak for others.

Alright brother. The answer to this thread was answered for me a while back. I at least hope what you're saying is in fact the main criteria you have for judging them then.

 

[Sanz]

Nevermind appreciating them..why the further vilification?

Well I already accepted that I was wrong on the Cricinfo article.

England > Bangladesh

England > Zimbabwe

So if we want to nitpick, obviously those two are still the relative measure. Ok, Warne's opposition weren't #2, but they were still better than Zimbabwe or Bangladesh my friend.

If you want to nit pick then Murali played most of his tests against Zimbabwe when they used to be a good team, they used to be a decent team. A team that would beat India in Zim and beat Pak in Pak. IMO they were as good against spin bowling as the English team of 90s (if not better). Murali played only 2 tests against the current Zimbabwe team. And you can make a case for Bangladesh being poor than England but Warne has got his chance to play against them and he hasn't really lit the world alight by his performance, hence he cant complain.

Besides I have already shown you that Murali's would have got more wickets against England in same no. of tests. that he bowled against ZImbabwe and Bangladesh. So I dont know what you are trying to prove here.

Macgill 8fer. The rest of the match Warne has done well despite being sub-par. We're going to go in circles. You think Bangladesh aren't easy wickets, I think they certainly are. I think even if they're not EASY, they're the easiest in relative comparison to other nations. That's the point.

Mcgill's 8fer was n't cheap, Bangladesh scored 400 runs dude.

 

[Ikki]

If you want to nit pick then Murali played most of his tests against Zimbabwe when they used to be a good team, they used to be a decent team. A team that would beat India in Zim and beat Pak in Pak. IMO they were as good against spin bowling as the English team of 90s (if not better). Murali played only 2 tests against the current Zimbabwe team. And you can make a case for Bangladesh being poor than England but Warne has got his chance to play against them and he hasn't really lit the world alight by his performance, hence he cant complain.

So because of one innings he's damned for life? Finished? Warne couldn't hack it against the Bangladeshi's? Combine the matches Murali's played against the worst two teams in test cricket and let Warne play them. Do you think his figures wouldn't improve quite a bit? Maybe less wickets than Murali because he has to share, but certainly it would be much more advantageous for him to play them than play better alternatives. Which is all relative...even if you want to say Bangladesh are GOOD, they're one of the two worst teams

Besides I have already shown you that Murali's would have got more wickets against England in same no. of tests. that he bowled against ZImbabwe and Bangladesh. So I dont know what you are trying to prove here.

If that, because he'd bowl an insane amount of overs and have little in way of competition.

I still would doubt it'd help his figures more. Certainly don't help as much as playing Zimbabwe.

Mcgill's 8fer was n't cheap, Bangladesh scored 400 runs dude.

In terms of Murali's wickets, Sri lanka isn't ever miserly. Yet just like Macgill, Murali will escape with stats to improve his figures.

This is getting off course though, it wasn't a Murali V Warne discussion. Again, unless something relative or new is added, I have nothing to add. Thanks.

 

[Sanz]

So because of one innings he's damned for life? Finished? Warne couldn't hack it against the Bangladeshi's?

One innings ?? If you include Zimbabwe's game, so far he has bowled 5 innings and as I said hasn't really let the world alight with the no. of wickets.

Combine the matches Murali's played against the worst two teams in test cricket and let Warne play them. Do you think his figures wouldn't improve quite a bit?Maybe less wickets than Murali because he has to share, but certainly it would be much more advantageous for him to play them than play better alternatives.

Well who stopped warne from playing against worse teams ? And looking at his success he has had against those teams, I dont think it would improve his figures by much. Murali ran through this same BS batting lineup few weeks ago and Warnie went for one of his worst figures in test cricket. You can use whatever excuse you want to, but if Warnie had run through Bangla linep, no one would have talked about this so called injury.

even if you want to say Bangladesh are GOOD, they're one of the two worst teams

In terms of playing spin England were the worst team of 90s, worse than Zimbabwe IMO And Murali averages better than Warne.

If that, because he'd bowl an insane amount of overs and have little in way of competition.

That's just ridiculous. Warnie bowls 47 overs per test on an average, Murali Bowls 55, Kumble 53. That's not Insane. And I must remind you that the competition Warnie has with Mcgrath works in favor because he has a better average, strike rate when he bowls with Mcgrath. So you cant count that against Murali.

I still would doubt it'd help his figures more. Certainly don't help as much as playing Zimbabwe.

You can assume whatever you want, but that doesn't mean it is true.

In terms of Murali's wickets, Sri lanka isn't ever miserly. Yet just like Macgill, Murali will escape with stats to improve his figures.
This is getting off course though, it wasn't a Murali V Warne discussion. Again, unless something relative or new is added, I have nothing to add. Thanks.

So this is what it was all about all along. Murali cant be compared to Warne and at best he is just like Macgill, isn' it ? It is sad that you had to add this at the end of this discussion, tells your intent and it is really sad and leaves a very sour taste at the end. Anyways I guess this thread can kiss goodbye now, on a very Sour note though.

 

[Ikki]

One innings ?? If you include Zimbabwe's game, so far he has bowled 5 innings and as I said hasn't really let the world alight with the no. of wickets.

5 Innings, lord, we've been overrating him.

Well who stopped warne from playing against worse teams ? And looking at his success he has had against those teams, I dont think it would improve his figures by much. Murali ran through this same BS batting lineup few weeks ago and Warnie went for one of his worst figures in test cricket. You can use whatever excuse you want to, but if Warnie had run through Bangla linep, no one would have talked about this so called injury.

So called injury eh?

In terms of playing spin England were the worst team of 90s, worse than Zimbabwe IMO And Murali averages better than Warne.

.. > You can assume whatever you want, but that doesn't mean it is true.

That's just ridiculous. Warnie bowls 47 overs per test on an average, Murali Bowls 55, Kumble 53. That's not Insane. And I must remind you that the competition Warnie has with Mcgrath works in favor because he has a better average, strike rate when he bowls with Mcgrath. So you cant count that against Murali.

Murali has played 36 less matches and has roughly the same amount of balls bowled. I'm not arguing whether he would have a better strike rate or average (would be hard to gauge considering he's played vastly more tests with Glenn than without) but I am arguing he'd get similar amount of wickets. Murali is a marathon bowler who's flurry of wickets comes from the mass amount of overs he bowls in each game. Warne is the opposite. Warne has to make batsmen play to get wickets. Warne also has an All-Timer at the other end taking wickets and also has had world class support to compete with. Whilst that can be an advantage at times, to a bowler he has such a devastating effect in his spells, and is dangerous with pretty much every delivery...it's not going to help him that much. It would be much better if he didn't have so much competition. Average could go higher, but then again taking wickets could bring it back down.

So this is what it was all about all along. Murali cant be compared to Warne and at best he is just like Macgill, isn' it ? It is sad that you had to add this at the end of this discussion, tells your intent and it is really sad and leaves a very sour taste at the end. Anyways I guess this thread can kiss goodbye now, on a very Sour note though.

Uh, no mate. That wasn't the implication at all. Me suggesting that Bangladesh and Zimbabwe are the worst test nations is not as ridiculous as suggesting Warne will not do well against these teams given more time. Yes, while I guage this looking at their careers, you're comparing this with 2.5 games worth of tests between the two teams. Not only that, you fail to acknowledge that for whatever reason, Warne wasn't well for the first day which is why he DIDN'T play the second day. Someone who was on form, and did play well was Macgill (8-fer). You said his wickets weren't cheap, they were when you take his own figures into consideration. And the same kind of numbers Murali also gets even when his side loses. It's not to fault Murali, he can't help not having great support, and it's an attribute to him to be able to burden so much burden. But as said, he bowls a lot of overs and he is given sovereignty in taking wickets for Sri Lanka. So, of course he'll have a great average and wicket count.

LOL, we've really gotten off topic. But it's proved to me that really you're not judging Warne by a just basis (at least not to me) and it's hard to see rationality in the midst of "supposed injury" and implying Warne wouldn't do well against those nations. It shows a bit of bias to me.

 

[marc71178]

So swearing is worse than cheating?

No wonder youre so hard on the Aussies.

But I didn't see any outcry from certain people towards Harbhajan the other day...