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*Official* Third Test (Headingley, Leeds) 6–10 July

Spark

Global Moderator
Yeah, I meant on his test debut he didn't really deserve selection on that first India tour. Although I guess Lyon for Maxwell isn't a particularly one for one.

Playing in India just breaks selectors brains as well, teams jam in dog**** spinners then get shocked when they get smoked instead of just playing their best bowlers + 1 being a spinner.
In fairness we picked 3 spinners a few months back, one of which had barely played for Victoria and another who wouldn't make the best dozen bowlers in Australia, and it worked out really well all things considered. One godawful session (well, two, really) was all that stood between the team and a serious shot at a series win.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Can't think of a player who matches this, Hauritz and Lyon's career basically don't over-lap. Maxwell was def a bit of a joke, similar to Steve Smith, in his initial use in the test team and the round peg-square hole element of some of the selections, but it's an absolute crime that he was never given a shot in the team on home soil. horrendous stuff, particularly given some of the names that did get a go. and of course like some players, we reached a point where he barely ever got to play in the shield because he was playing white ball cricket for Aus and then got over-looked coz he wasn't scoring shield runs

only 10 of his FC games have taken place over the last 5 years
Yeah I was thinking 2013, and it must have been another spinner you cycled through not Haurtiz (was Doherty the main spinner then and you had another spinning all rounder?). Yeah it is weird he never played as a bat on home soil given how much you'd think he'd suit it. I'm not particularly convinced he'd make it but given his upside was probably worth a shot.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Got impressive stats , averages 40 in FC , 57 in List A and 40 in T20 ..Definitely worth a talking to
He comes from my hometown

Consensus is that he is a level below Renshaw etc and would have waited quite some time just to get a game for Queensland

Similar case to Sam Robson who is a Sydney boy and moved to England for more opportunities
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Mad how Hain has one of the best List A averages ever and we've not even looked at him for ODI side. Guess he doesn't suit the style and can't really argue with the results.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah I was thinking 2013, and it must have been another spinner you cycled through not Haurtiz (was Doherty the main spinner then and you had another spinning all rounder?). Yeah it is weird he never played as a bat on home soil given how much you'd think he'd suit it. I'm not particularly convinced he'd make it but given his upside was probably worth a shot.
Cam White played test(s) in India as a spinner at a time when he was hardly bowling for Victoria

Quite some feat when he was the Victorian captain at the time and wouldn’t give himself a bowl
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Yeah I was thinking 2013, and it must have been another spinner you cycled through not Haurtiz (was Doherty the main spinner then and you had another spinning all rounder?). Yeah it is weird he never played as a bat on home soil given how much you'd think he'd suit it. I'm not particularly convinced he'd make it but given his upside was probably worth a shot.
Was O'Keefe I am thinking of, checked wikipedia. I have in my head it was a bit of a contentious call to go Maxwell, but the overall premise I understand.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
Aren't you Aussie posters who keep telling us Marcus Harris is hopeless the same Aussie posters who told us Mitch Marsh was hopeless?

I just don't know what to believe any more.
Though Marsh scored two tons v Eng in 17/18, those two players literally only have one innings between them of note and that was by Marsh in this match. We haven't been wrong about either player.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Mad how Hain has one of the best List A averages ever and we've not even looked at him for ODI side. Guess he doesn't suit the style and can't really argue with the results.
Lots of luck for some where selection is concerned and timing plays a huge part

Xavier Doherty is a test cricketer so say no more
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
Mad how Hain has one of the best List A averages ever and we've not even looked at him for ODI side. Guess he doesn't suit the style and can't really argue with the results.
He's just been unlucky to be around at the wrong time. There is pretty much just one specialist middle order batsman role in the side, that was filled by Morgan for a decade and then along comes Brook to replace him.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Ironically I can absolutely imagine Ponting captaining like him but not as a compliment. Ponting never put everyone back on the fence to the tail but neither has Cummins decided to bowl part timers in a series-on-the-line potential matchwinning moment either.
Is Cummins' captaincy that bad? This is the first series I've seen him and I'd say he's been OK. He gets a lot of blame when a tactic doesn't work, but when it does work everyone just talks about England's batsmen being stupid.

I thought Ponting and Paine were terrible captains.
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Lots of luck for some where selection is concerned and timing plays a huge part

Xavier Doherty is a test cricketer so say no more
100% luck and coaches/selectors fixating on a "style" of player play giant roll.

I think my bias is that I think Maxwell is one of the more overrated ODI players I've seen and yet whenever he comes out to bat he's treated like he is a genuine match winner which he rarely is. T20 different story and suppose he was key piece in 2015 which helps him.
 

Kenneth Viljoen

International Regular
He comes from my hometown

Consensus is that he is a level below Renshaw etc and would have waited quite some time just to get a game for Queensland

Similar case to Sam Robson who is a Sydney boy and moved to England for more opportunities
Sometimes players mature at different stages , or something just clicks in a different environment..

I saw Neil Wagner as a youngster trying to break into the Titans team ..Didn't look anything special ..
Moves to NZ and becomes one of their greatest ever Test bowlers ..

Marnus Labuschagne had a FC average of 35 when he debuted for Australia, he may very well average that again the way he's batting 😅, but nobody would have ever thought he'd reach the No.1 batting ranking .
 

91Jmay

International Coach
Sometimes players mature at different stages , or something just clicks in a different environment..

I saw Neil Wagner as a youngster trying to break into the Titans team ..Didn't look anything special ..
Moves to NZ and becomes one of their greatest ever Test bowlers ..

Marnus Labuschagne had a FC average of 35 when he debuted for Australia, he may very well average that again the way he's batting 😅, but nobody would have ever thought he'd reach the No.1 batting ranking .
Although the story on this is slightly overplayed as his overall average was dinged by him doing nothing when he was picked early, Trescothick always averaged more in tests than FC cricket as well.

Some players styles may suit pitches more and may just rise to the higher pressure environment.
 

CartyDurham

International Captain
Maybe Australia will decide when England announce their side a couple of days pre the test and if Broad is selected or not , re the retention of Warner

this reminds of the summer when Terry Alderman had Graham Gooch in his back pocket to the extent Gooch voluntarily left the squad
 

Spofforth

School Boy/Girl Captain
Come on, you're not citing Clarke's 3/15 as a basis for selection policy?
No, just one of many instances where part timers help get things done. The same way Head had better figures than Green at Lords. Worth noting the no 6 actually scored 160 and 60 in that SCG match. Good attacks shouldn't need to weaken the batting to cover for them. Unless there are unusual circumstances, but it shouldn't be run of the mill.

This was a rapid Test in no small part due to the pitch, but what if OT is like the last few Tests Australia have played there and it's a batsman's paradise in which anything short of 400 is a good result for the bowling side (like Edgbaston was)? In that case yes you want multiple bowling options so no one bowler can be easily targeted and put massive pressure on the others. You cannot be picking a team on the basis that you'll only bowl 50 overs an innings. That will lead to rapid disaster..
Your spinner should be able to hold one end. 400 isn't anything beyond what 3 quicks and a spinner could handle. If it's a flat pitch the poms will do that in 80 overs. We have bowler rotations anyway.

Bowling options that weaken the batting makes no sense general. Green isn't that good anyway, a bit of a Trundler. I'm tipping he might make a batsman when he gives up on the bowling.

Renshaw's Shield record is absolutely not "far better" than Green's, where did you get that from? Last three seasons for Queensland: 1488 runs @ 48 with with 5 hundreds and 3 fifties. Cameron Green's Shield record during roughly the same period: 1622 runs @ 70 with 6 hundreds and 3 fifties, in fewer games to boot. The periods don't overlap, which is good for Renshaw because the season I omitted for him has him averaging 20.
*recent* shield form. Last 18 months/ 2yrs is better than Green (which isn't that good). Century for the PM's 11 also.

Anyway, you brought Renshaw up not me. I'm not pushing anyone in particular, just pointing out that Green is way overrated. It can be worth carrying such players if they can be match winners capable of turning series (Flintoff for instance). Unlikely for Green, nothing so far indicates it might happen.

No one competes with Green on recent Shield record. The bloke is 24, yet you seem to want to stick a fork in him.
The underlined is objectively not true. Green is further down the list than Renshaw but neither are standouts.

I would prefer not to have a repeat of his predecessor, the bloke who played in his spot recently (and played quite well). No one showed more promise than him at one stage. Was a sacred cow for too long because of it, to the detriment of all concerned (himself and the team).

Green's figures don't demand selection nor require that a place in the team be kept for him. S Waugh was (rightly) dropped (for his brother to boot) with far better figures and came back stronger. Hell, even Bradman was dropped early on. We should be looking for the best batsman we can find for our no 6.
 
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Spark

Global Moderator
No, just one of many instances where part timers help get things done. The same way Head had better figures than Green at Lords. Worth noting the no 6 actually scored 160 and 60 in that SCG match. Good attacks shouldn't need to weaken the batting to cover for them. Unless there are unusual circumstances, but it shouldn't be run of the mill.



You're pretty good with the strawmen. Your spinner should be able to hold one end. 400 isn't anything beyond what 3 quicks and a spinner could handle. If it's a flat pitch the poms will do that in 80 overs.

Bowling options that weaken the batting makes no sense general. Green isn't that good anyway, a bit of a Trundler. I'm tipping he might make a batsman when he gives up on the bowling.


*recent* shield form. Last 18 months/ 2yrs is better than Green (which isn't that good). Century for the PM's 11 also.

Anyway, you brought Renshaw up not me. I'm not pushing anyone in particular, just pointing out that Green is way overrated. It can be worth carrying such players if they can be match winners capable of turning series (Flintoff for instance). Unlikely for Green, nothing so far indicates it might happen.



The underlined is objectively not true. Green is further down the list than Renshaw but neither are standouts.

I would prefer not to have a repeat of his predecessor, the bloke who played in his spot recently (and played quite well). No one showed more promise than him at one stage. Was a sacred cow for too long because of it, to the detriment of all concerned (himself and the team).

Green's figures don't demand selection nor require that a place in the team be kept for him. S Waugh was (rightly) dropped (for his brother to boot) with far better figures and came back stronger. Hell, even Bradman was dropped early on. We should be looking for the best batsman we can find for our no 6.
Cameron Green has not played a Sheffield Shield game since 2020/21. His Sheffield Shield record is exactly as I've suggested. The CJ Green you've spotted there is Chris Green, who plays for NSW, not Cameron Green.

If you can spot me another 22-24 year old batsman who is tearing up the Shield then please give us a name. Otherwise you're just rating a bloke on three Tests and totally ignoring the year that came before. I don't understand why a Test hundred against an extremely weak Pakistan attack in 2018 counts but a Test hundred made against Ashwin and Jadeja in India all of four months ago does not. The reason Harris and Renshaw get brought up is... they're in the squad. They are the actual alternatives on the table if you want to drop Green indefinitely for god knows what reason.
 
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Spofforth

School Boy/Girl Captain
Cameron Green has not played a Sheffield Shield game since 2020/21. His Sheffield Shield record is exactly as I've suggested. The CJ Green you've spotted there is Chris Green, who plays for NSW, not Cameron Green.

If you can spot me another 22 year old batsman who is tearing up the Shield then please give us a name. Otherwise you're just rating a bloke on three Tests and totally ignoring the year that came before.
Ok...apologies. My mistake.

How would he have such a recent record if he hasn't played? Anyway, there's plenty of players who's shield record hasn't transferred to tests (and vice versa). Green's is mediocre after 23 matches.
 

Ashes81

State Vice-Captain
It's surprising the problems both teams are having with their top order, considering we're ranked 2nd and 3rd in the world (somehow India are still ranked 1st).

For Australia, you only have Khawaja who is performing. Warner is only playing because you've nobody else. Labuschagne is going through a really rough patch as well.

For us, Duckwtt has done pretty well. But we're made up that Crawley is averaging in the 30s and with Pope out injured, it looks like Moeen will have to bat at 3.

Both teams are in a bit of a shambles in the top 3
 

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