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***Official*** Sri Lanka in India

ramkumar_gr

U19 Vice-Captain
Toecrusher said:
Success as a batsman while being a captain is different from success as a captain. He was successful when it comes to the former, but appalling when it came to the latter.

He quit twice because he was a useless captain. His man-management skills were mediocre, he couldn't handle all the politics that go along with captaining an Indian cricket team, and his tactical ability, albeit with his poor bowling resources, was lacking. Quitting the captaincy had nothing do with his batting performances or being a choker. He just simply was not a good captain. Period.
You are spot on and it was the cheap politics, which you can always associate with Indian cricket, let to his decision to quit. And the team was so weak, and he was so unfortunate to lead the weakest indian team ever. (all hopeless and useless players like Vijay Bharadwaj, Kanitkar, Jacob Martin, Samir Dighe, Debang Gandhi, D Ganesh, P Mambhreay, Sujit Somasunder played during his reign). The captaincy had nothing to do with his batting abilities.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Toecrusher said:
The reason I am bringing Ponting, Inzy, Lara etc. into the discussion is to prove that ALL batsman are chokers if you apply the strict definition of the term. Finals and 4th innings add a lot of pressure that ALL batsman are affected by to a certain degree, but Tendulkar is not affected to any greater extent than anyone else. The only reason is that Tendulkar stands out as being a worse choker than them is because expectations on him are so much higher.
I would be least bothered about How Ponting or Inzi do in a finals, I am arguing about SRt's performance in pressure games, games which are Knockouts (QFs, SFs, Finals) or games where you are made do chase high scores, or games of a series where the final game is the decider...SRT has had a miserable performance since 2000-01 season.

He has not had a single triple digit score in last five years..and only 3 50+ scores..out of which one was scored against Kenya.. Not to forget his performance in decider matches has been pathetic..(.e.g 5th odi vs. Pak in pak, 6th ODI vs. Eng in India, 5th Odi vs. Aus in Ind etc..)


For example, if Australia are set a target of 350 in a final and lose, and Ponting gets out for 15, will the average cricket fan on the next day consider his 'choking' as the main reason for the loss. No, they would recognise the loss as a dissapointing collective effort from the team.
You are still not getting the point..it is not about one or two matches..it is about failing consistently..please tell me a pressure match in recent times(since 2000)...where SRT has succeeded..a match which is a Knockout match(QF, SF etc) or a Final or a decider match or a high chasing game....Please show me that SRT has succeeded consistently
in such games and I will apologize for all my posts...

WC Finals was okay..It may not be choking considering it was an unchaseble total against this aussie attack..but what about other games...there are so many where he failed.

Now in the same situation, if India is chasing 350 in a final and lose with Sachin getting 15, what will the reaction be? He will be regarded as a 'choker' simply and will be blamed for the team's loss, forgetting that the bowlers conceded 350 in the first place and the other batsmen failed to pick up the slack. Why, because the expectations and demands on him are so much higher than any other cricketer in HISTORY that anything less than a matchwinning innings is considered a failure.
Too much of emotional talk..Really I dont care about history..and I dont expect SRT to win everything for us all by himself.. I merely want his contribution in the games that are important. He takes us through league rounds...only to fail in the final hurdle..

No, what am I saying is that how Tendulkar's apparent 'chokes' are a lot more obvious to the average cricket fan, and that other great batsman have similar or worse choking records that are not that well known.
Obviously..other batsmen are not compared to Bradman, are they ? They are not called 'GOD', are they ? Can we even dare to compare Ponting, Inzimam etc with Bradman or even call them GOD or master blaster or so many other adjectives ? I guess NOT. So why bring the mortals in the discussion of GOD ?

So Sachin averaging 34 in pressure 4th innings is worse than Steve Waugh averaging 25 in a no pressure 4th innings? I fail to see your point here.....
Well the difference my friend is that Australia have been in winning position in almost all those games..and have won most of it or atleast have drawn most of it, so hardly any pressure in chasing low totals..
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
SJS said:
Changing the topic ........

Anyone wants to offer odds for tomorrow's game ?
Not particularly - the general rule of ODIs suggests SL should win one now, but the momentum and the way they lost that 3rd suggests India could make it a sweep.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Toecrusher said:
Success as a batsman while being a captain is different from success as a captain. He was successful when it comes to the former, but appalling when it came to the latter.
Actually, he was pretty unsuccessful as a batsman in his first year as captain..when he averaged around 35 with the bat in tests and then he went onto play in SL where the series was played on the flattest possible wicket ever (remember 950 score by SL ?) and despite that his avg. was around 45 something. He definately dis much better in his second stint though. Even in ODIs his batting avg. dips by 7 runs per innings.

So I dont know how you can say that his batting was not affected by his captaincy.

He quit twice because he was a useless captain. His man-management skills were mediocre, he couldn't handle all the politics that go along with captaining an Indian cricket team, and his tactical ability, albeit with his poor bowling resources, was lacking. Quitting the captaincy had nothing do with his batting performances or being a choker. He just simply was not a good captain. Period.
Exactly.. And if that is the case then why does media come up with stories like...SRT suggested Pathan's promotion, SRT's field change advice led X batsman's dismissal etc etc. To me it sounds more like Hero worshipping...and nothing else. when things go well ..it was due to SRT, when things dont go well it was the captain's fault.
 
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adharcric

International Coach
Sanz said:
Actually, he was pretty unsuccessful as a batsman in his first year as captain..when he averaged around 35 with the bat in tests and then he went onto play in SL where the series was played on the flattest possible wicket ever (remember 950 score by SL ?) and despite that his avg. was around 45 something. He definately dis much better in his second stint though. Even in ODIs his batting avg. dips by 7 runs per innings.

So I dont know how you can say that his batting was not affected by his captaincy.



Exactly.. And if that is the case then why does media come up with stories like...SRT suggested Pathan's promotion, SRT's field change advice led X batsman's dismissal etc etc. To me it sounds more like Hero worshipping...and nothing else. when things go well ..it was due to SRT, when things dont go well it was the captain's fault.
perhaps because dravid himself acknowledged that tendulkar suggested the idea of promoting pathan. seriously, control your bias and cut out the bull.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Looking beyond the easy wins and the 3-0 lead !!...contd

3. The number three position is still unsettled.
Having two big knocks at this position isnt necessarily a solution because we will probably have a new occupant in ths pivotal position tomorrow. I hope it is a senior like Sehwag and we dont stretch our run of good luck too far by trying another experiment. We have achieved the desired results and we ned to get back to a settled batting order. I have a sneaking feeling they may not drop Yuvraj and send him at three. I am nost so sure thats such a great idea though. They might try Venugopal or even Raina. No clues whatsoever.

4.The bowling hasnt been great
Although Sri Lanka were once bowled out for 122, the Indian bowling has varied from competent to toothless. Harbhajan has bowled well but never looked like geting big wickets. Pathan(who has got the break throughs) and Agarkar have bowled plenty of wayward deliveries too. The only one who has bowled upto the level that was expected of him or better consistently is JP Yaadav and that too is a comentaty on the rather low expectations from him. Will Sri Lanka oblige with bad bating again, perhaps not.

5. Jayasuriya is due for a big one.
Inspite of his injury, which might be restricting his reach for the delivery wide of the off stump, Jayasuriya's confidence against India from his past record always makes him danger man number one. The law of averages is moving in his favour.

The big plus maybe, Sehwag isnt out of form and must surely be due for a big one *fingers crossed*
 

GermanShepherd

School Boy/Girl Captain
Do you guys think Zaheer/Nehra still figure in Chappell's plans for both ODI and test cricket ?

Or do you think he will plump for a younger pace brigade of Pathan, Rp Singh, Sree Shant, VRV etc...?
 

ramkumar_gr

U19 Vice-Captain
GermanShepherd said:
Do you guys think Zaheer/Nehra still figure in Chappell's plans for both ODI and test cricket ?

Or do you think he will plump for a younger pace brigade of Pathan, Rp Singh, Sree Shant, VRV etc...?
Nehra i had always thought is a match winner either test or one-dayers.

India should go in with Pathan/Balaji/Nehra combination in test matches.

In case of only 2 fast bowlers, it should be Pathan/Nehra and L Balaji.
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
GermanShepherd said:
Do you guys think Zaheer/Nehra still figure in Chappell's plans for both ODI and test cricket ?

Or do you think he will plump for a younger pace brigade of Pathan, Rp Singh, Sree Shant, VRV etc...?
Can't say what they have in mind, but ideally, these should be the options:
  • TESTS: Zaheer, Irfan, Balaji, VR Singh (reserve), Yadav (in India, Ramesh Powar comes in for away matches), Sreesanth (reserve)
  • ODI'S: Irfan, VR Singh, Yadav, Sreesanth (reserve), RP Singh (reserve) and maybe even Bangar (and play your best keeper)
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
GermanShepherd said:
Do you guys think Zaheer/Nehra still figure in Chappell's plans for both ODI and test cricket ?

Or do you think he will plump for a younger pace brigade of Pathan, Rp Singh, Sree Shant, VRV etc...?
It is being talked that Nehra is reluctant to play test matches and prefers to stick to one dayers. This seems to have gone down badly with the establishment.

He has problems other than his performance or even fitness and will always struggle under a disciplinarian like Chappell. Zaheer is more related to performance and may come back sooner rather than later.
 

ramkumar_gr

U19 Vice-Captain
SJS said:
It is being talked that Nehra is reluctant to play test matches and prefers to stick to one dayers. This seems to have gone down badly with the establishment.

He has problems other than his performance or even fitness and will always struggle under a disciplinarian like Chappell. Zaheer is more related to performance and may come back sooner rather than later.
Zaheer is averaging in the high 50s in the last 7 test matches and had never been among the wickets in a big way except the NZ series.

We agree every player should be given a decent run, but what is the ceiling for that.

I feel it is time for someone like VRV Singh to get into the test team. I think selectors have done a wise thing by ignoring him for ODIs. I feel pretty sure he is a definite starter for test matches.
 

GermanShepherd

School Boy/Girl Captain
ramkumar_gr said:
Zaheer is averaging in the high 50s in the last 7 test matches and had never been among the wickets in a big way except the NZ series.

We agree every player should be given a decent run, but what is the ceiling for that.

I feel it is time for someone like VRV Singh to get into the test team. I think selectors have done a wise thing by ignoring him for ODIs. I feel pretty sure he is a definite starter for test matches.


I've never been all that impressed by Zaheer - I do feel VRV Singh and Gagandeep Singn should be picked for the Sri Lanka tests. I think the selectors should also groom Munaf Patel and SRee Santh for tests by playing against visiting sides and for the A team.
 

ramkumar_gr

U19 Vice-Captain
GermanShepherd said:
I've never been all that impressed by Zaheer - I do feel VRV Singh and Gagandeep Singn should be picked for the Sri Lanka tests. I think the selectors should also groom Munaf Patel and SRee Santh for tests by playing against visiting sides and for the A team.
It was quiet strange why Gagandeep Singh was dropped without being given a single match. Poor guy.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
SJS said:
Its not all hunky dory for India as may appear at first sight. There are issues that need to be tackled. A look at them.

1. 180 runs in 20 overs - recipe for disaster ?
The other day Sri Lanka reached the 30th over with just 120 runs on the board a miserly 4 runs an over. They then proceded to hit another 178 runs in 20 overs.. This was a sustained onslaught far more devastating than India with Tendulkar and Pathan, Sehwag and Dhoni or Tendulkar and Sehwag managed for such a sustained period of time. If Sri Lanka were to get off to a flier as they do have the wherewithal to do, where are our bowlers going to look ?

India seem to have no clue still as to how to bowl in the slog overs to rampaging batsmen. Every team seems to have one tail ender who eats Indian bowlers for breakfast. Sri Lanka seems to have Mahroof for this job.

2. When is the "obvious talent" of Yuvraj going to make an appearance ?
Yuvraj scored 50 in Sri Lanka in July 2004. Since then he has scored (against NON-MINNOWS)
8, 13, 4, 24, 9, 0, 78, 16, 15, 1, 35no, 13, 18, 12, 42, 1, 22, 20, 14 and 18.

WOW !!

What a talented player. An average of 19.1 and we use him and others to keep out (rightly sure) someone like Laxman because of his fielding ?? Is that it. If Laxman can be kept out of the side because he cant field brilliantly cant we say something about keeping out batsmen who cant bat except on paper ?

What dio you say, he score faster than Laxman ? Want to face the facts. Against these non- minnows, Yuvraj has a strike rate, over this period of 75 runs per 100 balls. Want to know Laxman's - 80 PLUS which incidentally is one of the best in the Indian team during the last two years barring Sehwag and maybe Sachin amongst the top order.

But this is not about Laxman. This is about the problems that india still needs to resolve.

Yes sir, number five in the order is surely a problem for the Indian team. We may need his runs one of these days you know !!

....to be continued.
SJS said:
3. The number three position is still unsettled.
Having two big knocks at this position isnt necessarily a solution because we will probably have a new occupant in ths pivotal position tomorrow. I hope it is a senior like Sehwag and we dont stretch our run of good luck too far by trying another experiment. We have achieved the desired results and we ned to get back to a settled batting order. I have a sneaking feeling they may not drop Yuvraj and send him at three. I am nost so sure thats such a great idea though. They might try Venugopal or even Raina. No clues whatsoever.

4.The bowling hasnt been great
Although Sri Lanka were once bowled out for 122, the Indian bowling has varied from competent to toothless. Harbhajan has bowled well but never looked like geting big wickets. Pathan(who has got the break throughs) and Agarkar have bowled plenty of wayward deliveries too. The only one who has bowled upto the level that was expected of him or better consistently is JP Yaadav and that too is a comentaty on the rather low expectations from him. Will Sri Lanka oblige with bad bating again, perhaps not.

5. Jayasuriya is due for a big one.
Inspite of his injury, which might be restricting his reach for the delivery wide of the off stump, Jayasuriya's confidence against India from his past record always makes him danger man number one. The law of averages is moving in his favour.

The big plus maybe, Sehwag isnt out of form and must surely be due for a big one *fingers crossed*
1) That was a poor effort from the Indian bowlers, but equally an amazing effort from the SL batsman. Sangakkara and Jayawardene were brilliant, and Maharoof was picking Pathan off like he was a dibbly dobbler medium pace bowler. I think, as Marc suggested, Pathan should be bowled out before the last 10 overs (at least last 5) until he improves his death bowling. He's lethal with the new ball, and cannon fodder with the old ball at the death. I like the idea of Yadav and Harbhajan bowling in tandem at the death, but once again they like bowling Harbhajan out early to restrict the runs.

2) It is seriously worrying me, because for some reason he demands a spot in the ODI team, when he quite clearly shouldn't. Your point about VVS is so true, but you know my stance on that as you and myself have made it quite clear last year (or earlier this year) in a specific topic. I think Laxman's ODI career is over unfortunately, but if that's the case someone else must still be putting pressure on Yuvraj. Gambhir, Raina and Rao can all take his spot. I still like Yuvraj and his fielding ability is brilliant but we can't afford to have any coasters who are in the team specifically for their ability to field.

3) I think Mohammad Kaif has shown he's the best man for the job at the moment. However he's obviously injured, but I think your worry for the batting order being unsettled is misguided. Chappell has quite clearly used the past few months since he took over as a way of seeing which formula works best. There was a great article somewhere, I can't remember where, regarding his experiments and the positives that have come from it. I think if India bat first in the 4th ODI, like you said, a senior person must come in that place. Rao or Raina aren't ready yet, and Yuvraj could be a disaster. That only leaves Dhoni, Yadav (not really senior) and Dravid. I wouldn't mind any of those.

With Kaif back, here is my idea batting order (Assuming Rao is dropped for Kaif)

Tendulkar
Sehwag
Kaif
Dravid
Yuvraj/Rao
Dhoni
Yadav
Pathan
Agarkar
Harbhajan
Kartik/Srees Santh etc.

Super Sub: Raina or any bowler that wants to be used.

Now if India are chasing big targets, Dhoni could be promoted to number 3 if the pitch is flat. I think a flexible, yet at the same time stable batting order would be most beneficial for India. Otherwise I like that team.

4) It hasn't been great no, but the fact that we're 3-0 up without bowling outstanding is something positive to take out of it. Hopefully Pathan and Agarkar can bowl even better with the new ball, and Harbhajan can keep what he's doing up. I think he's bowling fine. Wickets will come if he continues to bowl like that. The fact that he only gave away 30 runs despite SL making 298 was fantastic.

5) He's due, let's just hope that India have already sealed the series with their 4th win before Jayasuriya turns it on. Let's also hope Sehwag gets a ton, because he is batting better than he has for a while in ODIs, but still yet to get more than 30-40 runs.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
I'd just like to point out that the great Agit Agarkar is officially a father, as his wife gave birth to boy recently. I'm not sure if its his first kid, but a mini-AA = :cool:
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
PROBLEM 1: The Indians ar missing Nehra here. He was one of the few bowlers they had who could bowl well in the final overs, though Harbhajan's also doing well there. I too suggested that Irfan be kept out of the final overs, given he's a lot better when the ball is fresh and new, but there's often a fixation with keeping your 'star pace bowlers' for the final overs seen in most teams. Yadav's variations can make an impact here.

PROBLEM 2: On one side, you have Laxman, a class batsman, but deficient in fielding and running between the wickets. Turn that by 180 degrees and you have Yuvraj Singh. Unfortunate, but if the people in charge know how to handle him, he can be a fantastic batsman in this middle-order, but he needs to play for singles more often. Look at Laxman- he's slower between wickets but runs harder. Why can't Yuvraj?

PROBLEM 3: Ideally, it should be Mohammed Kaif, but it always helps to have a plan B, C or D with you. Kaif is the safest bet, but given a very good start or very average (or less) bowling, send in a hitter.

PROBLEM 4: Irfan bowled well in that one match, but given his style and intent, he is likely to go for more than a few runs. What matters are the wickets he picks up. Sreesanth is another fiery bowler, so there's always a risk of extra runs, but that extra wicket counts. JP can provide a good foil for these two by keeping a proper line and length, but he often tries out a few tricks by moving the ball all over and getting awkward bounce- a little too much for a change seamer. Harbhajan's fine, but his spin partner needs to bowl a little slower and add more variety. Ultimately, even with Agarkar, RP Singh or Sehwag bowling, the fielding has to be top-notch, and that's worked for the team so far.

PROBLEM 5: The same can be said of Sehwag. First it was Sangakkara and Dhoni, so now it could be Sanath and Sehwag.
 
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Dasa

International Vice-Captain
Jono said:
I'd just like to point out that the great Agit Agarkar is officially a father, as his wife gave birth to boy recently. I'm not sure if its his first kid, but a mini-AA = :cool:





Yes, I'm VERY bored.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Arjun said:
PROBLEM 1: The Indians ar missing Nehra here. He was one of the few bowlers they had who could bowl well in the final overs, though Harbhajan's also doing well there. I too suggested that Irfan be kept out of the final overs, given he's a lot better when the ball is fresh and new, but there's often a fixation with keeping your 'star pace bowlers' for the final overs seen in most teams. Yadav's variations can make an impact here.
Excellent point, I think he's the best of the fast bowlers when it coems to this. He gets it up in the blockhole most times than not, and if he does get back into the team he'd be best. I'm still not a fan of Nehra, but I'm not going to deny what he's good at, which is bowling at the death.

Oh and LOL Dasa. Shouldn't you be studying for Melb Uni exams? Hey, shouldn't I be too :p
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
ramkumar_gr said:
You are spot on and it was the cheap politics, which you can always associate with Indian cricket, let to his decision to quit. And the team was so weak, and he was so unfortunate to lead the weakest indian team ever. (all hopeless and useless players like Vijay Bharadwaj, Kanitkar, Jacob Martin, Samir Dighe, Debang Gandhi, D Ganesh, P Mambhreay, Sujit Somasunder played during his reign). The captaincy had nothing to do with his batting abilities.
He also made it a point to get in a lot of Mumbai players who he had seen more often and thought that they were good. (There were reports that he was under pressure from the West selector, whoever it was at that time, to do his "bit" for Mumbai cricket). He was obviously not the best guy to lead the side back then.
 

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