*Official* South Africa in New Zealand

[Loony BoB]

Vettori does indeed need a wakeup call. It didn't do too badly for McMillan, eh? I like how we keep a solid base for our team, but it can't hurt to have some competition.

You can't judge Vettori's international performances against any other NZ spinner on a realistic scale because he's got nobody to compare with on the international level. I haven't kept up with the NZ domestic season much since I moved to the UK, so can someone give me a comparison of the domestic stats for Vettori, Wiseman and Bruce Martin? Just the last season or two if possible...

 

[Langeveldt]

So how has Andre Nel looked to you guys with the bat???

After being beaten for pace by Wavell Hinds, Im convinced he is worse than Martin, and therefore the worst batsman in international cricket...

 

[Mingster]

Vettori does indeed need a wakeup call. It didn't do too badly for McMillan, eh? I like how we keep a solid base for our team, but it can't hurt to have some competition.

You can't judge Vettori's international performances against any other NZ spinner on a realistic scale because he's got nobody to compare with on the international level. I haven't kept up with the NZ domestic season much since I moved to the UK, so can someone give me a comparison of the domestic stats for Vettori, Wiseman and Bruce Martin? Just the last season or two if possible...

http://nz.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/2003-04/NZ_LOCAL/STCHAMP/STATS/STCHAMP_2003-04_AVS_ND.html

Bruce Martin had a first class average of 27 this season with 22 wickets and 2 5-fors. Not bad going. There's not point in taking last year's stats seriously because the pitches were green seamers.

 

[Tim]

Martin has also proved that he is just as capable as Vettori at scoring runs with that century against S.L 'A' yesterday.

 

[Tim]

200/7..lead of 181.

Not enough..IMO NZ needed 280 at least to remain competitive, but a brain explosion by Cairns & a poor shot by Styris have left NZ in a terrible position.

NZ were going along really well until Cairns lost the plot. It's almost like NZ have caught South Africa's disease of throwing away their wickets at key moments in the match.

 

[Kent]

You've got about 3 sessions to bat to achieve one of NZ cricket's finest moments, with 5 wickets in hand. The pitch is flat, you're in no difficulty, with the opposition clearly finding the conditions unpleasant.

What happens? Both senior batsmen p*** it away within balls of each other! Now we have to defend a 230 lead.

It's made me think that maybe Graeme Smith was right - for all that Fleming's dominated him as a leader on this tour, it's going to be so much harder when NZ outgrows its underdog tag. Almost 10,000 people turned up at the Basin yesterday anticipating it, but were treated to stage fright instead. Fleming's 9 off 57 balls was the innings of a nervous man, and set the tone for a 'freeze-then-panic' batting effort that will probably cost NZ the series.

Hopefully this will be one of those lessons learned the hard way, and Cairns won't feel like he's ready to retire after all.

 

[Kent]

I wouldn't necessarily agree re: Giles - he does have the ability, but the conditions conspire against him. .

Fair enough. These days even I'd lean towards Giles if Vettori was English.

Loony Bob said that Vettori needs a 'wake up call', but unlike McMillan I don't think it's an attitude thing. Giving him a public dressing down would probably be unjustified, because I have no problem with Vettori's effort. He's just no longer the talent we thought he was.

Injuries meant Allan Donald ended his career as a pretty juicy fast-medium. It's a cruel thing, but the selectors can't be compassionate just because of Vettori's youth. Bracewell has publicly stated he doesn't rate his arm-ball as a weapon and is telling him to forget about it, so in my view that means he should now be viewed as an economy bowler, much like Chris Harris.

Chris Harris isn't in anyone's test side.

 

[Kent]

40/3!

It's usually free after tea so I better get down there.

I'll tell Fleming to get his hands off his damn knees - he's now caught 3 in a row without even joining his hands.

 

[nibbs]

we need to get Smith out before stumps if we're to be a chance.

 

[Adamc]

we need to get Smith out before stumps if we're to be a chance.

Well Smith is still in, not necessarily all over for NZ though. 152 runs is still a fair few, and if Smith and Kirsten fall in the first hour it could be very interesting. Kirsten has the chance to go out on a high; a gritty half-century tomorrow will go a long way to helping South Africa to victory.

 

[Kent]

Quite a similar situation to this test really...

http://nz.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1999/NZ_IN_ENG/SCORECARDS/NZ_ENG_T4_19-23AUG1999.html

What?! SA don't have a tail of Irani, Caddick, Mullally, Tufnell and Giddins?

I'd still like to think we're a 30% chance. 'Showers developing' adds a twist to things as well, but unlike a lot of Kiwis I'd prefer to see the side go out and try to earn a series victory.

"Hoping for rain is a loser's attitude." - Kerry O'Keeffe

 

[tooextracool]

this is a good time for greame smith to really stand up for his team and show us that he is worth that 55 average.
where has chris martin been all this time?well im not sure this performance should be taken too seriously because he had a pretty good series against SA in SA in 00-01 averaging 26.
mark boucher meanwhile has had a series to forget averaging just 9. its amazing how he struggles against the better teams like australia and nz but tends to do well against west indies etc.but i guess if the rest of the south african batting has failed theres no point in blaming the keeper

 

[Langeveldt]

"Hoping for rain is a loser's attitude." - Kerry O'Keeffe

"Tomorrow? Tomorrow's for poms!"

A great commentator

 

[Kent]

Well played, South Africa. Contrast Graeme Smith's second innings with Stephen Fleming's.

In a way it was fitting Smith got the last laugh on NZ I guess, because what the NZ camp had to say about him was patronising at times.

No-one talked down to Tiger Woods about his youth or his emotion, and I think people went overboard about Fleming showing Smith who's the apprentice.

 

[luckyeddie]

Well played, South Africa. Contrast Graeme Smith's second innings with Stephen Fleming's.

In a way it was fitting Smith got the last laugh on NZ I guess, because what the NZ camp had to say about him was patronising at times.

No-one talked down to Tiger Woods about his youth or his emotion, and I think people went overboard about Fleming showing Smith who's the apprentice.

Hear hear.

Graeme Smith won me over last year. For all his faults, he is most definitely a man to be reckoned with - you can be a learner without being anyone's apprentice.

 

[Isolator]

One thing that worried me were Fleming's thoughts on NZ's first innings. He was asked about the shot selection and he basically said that the shot selection was okay but the execution was lacking. That's pretty obvious, but his refusal to accept that those shots (like his swipe at Boje, or Styris's charge) were irresponsible was worrying. I hope they haven't fooled themselves into thinking that they can emulate Australia's shot-a-ball style.

 

[Kent]

Hey Eddie, why did my post about the plagiarism get deleted? Did I do something wrong?

Perhaps one of the moderators can e-mail me and fill me in. If they don't want to be honest, perhaps its best if I give Cricket Web a miss.

 

[luckyeddie]

Hey Eddie, why did my post about the plagiarism of my post get deleted? Did I do something wrong?

Perhaps one of the moderators can e-mail me and fill me in. If they don't want to be honest, perhaps its best if I give Cricket Web a miss.

Not at all - quite the opposite - email sent as requested.

 

[Craig]

Well I have seen at times in this series that I wouldnt be surprised if Smith has improved his major flaw.

Despite what Neil harps on about Smith, he showed cases or instantces he is working towards fixing it.

Congratulations to Gary Kirsten on a great career.

Thierry and Kent's opinions on Vettori are valid, but can they realistically see him not being picked in Tests squads?

Despite what they might say he is a certainty to England though.

 

[Kent]

Eddie - Thanks for the e-mail and the kind words.

Craig - it's interesting you should say that about Vettori and England. Just driving home this evening I was surprised to hear how many fans want Vettori rested from the England tour, with quite a number wanting Bruce Martin to go in his place.

Radio Sport isn't really known for its cricket talk, but I think the idea has a bit of merit. Vettori is getting increasingly defensive and frustrated with his bowling, and a rest could save him from becoming completely neurotic about it.

A pace selection of Bond, Martin, Tuffey, Oram and Cairns(?) will be expected to claim 90% of NZ's wickets anyway. SA only managed 5 wickets through specialist spinners in their 5 English tests last year, despite Boje just cleaning up Vettori 8 wickets to nil at the Basin.

If Bruce Martin could chip out a few wickets with something new, perhaps continuing his good form as a lower-order batsman, I think he would enhance the NZ squad. If it turns out he's more innocuous at the top level than Vettori is, no real harm done IMO.