***Official*** South Africa in India

[ret]

I'm up for an avatar challenge against an Indian supporter along the same lines as well.

u r on .... 1 week or 1 mth

 

[tooextracool]

The toss was helpful in the Second Test, of course it was, but even despite it I don't think I'd begrudge India the victory - it wasn't as if the swing and seam was lavish for England's entire innings then stopped the second India got bat in hand, nor as if England dropped catches, nor as if the bowlers bowled abysmally. And if Bell and Prior had played better and England had had a stronger lower-order they might just still have staved-off defeat even despite the gross misfortune that was the Vaughan dismissal. It wasn't as if the match was a repeat of Guyana 1998, the most disgraceful case of toss-decides-match I've ever seen.

Meh remember that series quite well in 1998, especially the 2nd test. Remember particularly hating Russell at that point for first dropping Williams on 40odd and then letting a ball past him and onto his helmet to concede 5 runs when 11 was required to win.
As far as the India series is concerned, considering that Zaheer was head and shoulders ahead of every other bowler in that series, i have no problems accepting the scoreline as it turned out at the end of the series, but on the whole i dont think India was the better side by any stretch of imagination. England played poorly yes, but when the likes of Wasim Jaffer and Saurav Ganguly are scoring runs on a pitch that seemed like a minfield only an inning earlier, there is a clear disparity in the conditions.

 

[tooextracool]

1979 would be the one, although they probably came closer to winning it. A bit articficial, I know, as they only lost a batch of wickets at the end when upping the tempo to try and snatch a win, but it did end up very close either way.

just looked at the scorecard, was tantalisingly poised no doubt. 366-1 in the final innings of a test match is quite some feat.

 

[social]

2 recent series? South Africa's record against Test-class teams on the subcontinent (you WILL NOT be telling me that winning in Bangladesh means a thing) reads: played 10, won 4, drawn 1, lost 5. 2 of those wins have come against Pakistan, who are nowhere near so omnipotent at home as India and Sri Lanka. They've won 1 series each in Sri Lanka and India, both occasions when the respective side was a fair shambles (1993 and 1999\2000). Until recently, South Africa hadn't beaten a Test-class team on the subcontinent (in a MATCH, never mind a series) since 2000.

They could easily have drawn all 4 of the series they lost in a row 2003\04-2006, but they didn't. They have one hell of a lot to prove in this series.

No-one's claimed they're certainties, just fairly hot favourites. Because before that they won a series in England, came fairly close to winning one in South Africa, won one in West Indies, and because at home in the last 20 years their series record reads played 27, won 18, drawn 6, lost 3 (or drawn 7, lost 2 according to how you look at it). Now, admittedly 3 of the draws and 1 of the losses have come in the last 4 seasons, and they should've done better on all 4 occasions. But their record in that time is still formidable by most standards.

Richard

India collapsed in SA (as they did in Sydney) and are renowned chokers

They beat a second string England attack

And WI????????? They're Bangladesh in a more tourist friendly environment

Harris is no world beater but he'll keep it tight enough

Steyn looks the goods but is young and significantly better than any Indian pacer (forget Ishant - he's out but hasnt worked out how to dismiss batsmen anyway)

Ntini has taken 300+ wickets but is dodgy away from home

Morkel is hardly mentioned but is a taller, quicker version of Ishant (i.e. remarkably underrated potential)

Kallis is taking wickets again

Smith runs hot and cold but his last innings was a double

etc etc etc

Bottom line is that I wouldnt bet good money on either side BUT SA look a good value proposition and I'm therefore happy to wager avatars and whatever other worthless items people are willing to put up

 

[duffer]

Unless Steyn consistently blows away the top order, I can't see how South Africa are getting 20 wickets in Indian conditions. Add to that Kallis is their only batsman who I would consider world class I can't see them taking the series unless those two carry them tremendously.

Bit worried by our bowling lineup for the 1st Test but still think Kumble will be the gamebreaker anywhere in India. Sachin being back in form is huge as well.

I'm up for an avatar challenge against an Indian supporter along the same lines as well.

A fortnight? You're on.

 

[silentstriker]

India collapsed in SA (as they did in Sydney) and are renowned chokers

I think they've just been poor players away from home. From 1985-2000, they won zero Tests away from home. Not series, Tests. Since 2000, they've won quite a few - but they are still somewhat hampered away from home. I am not sure the choker tag applies, though obviously there have been games where they've collapsed (like any other team).

Bottom line is that I wouldnt bet good money on either side BUT SA look a good value proposition and I'm therefore happy to wager avatars and whatever other worthless items people are willing to put up

That SA will beat India in a Test series at home? I'll take that wager - avatar for a month?

I'd say the two sides are almost on an even footing and the home side has the clear advantage in both cases. At home, I'm fairly comfortable that we won't lose. Of course, injuries have decimated our bowling attack, but I'm still relatively sure we won't get beaten. We'll see. I'm certainly up for a month avatar.

 

[Richard]

Also a factor is where the tests are being played. SA will be disappointed that they dont have tests at Bangalore & Mumbai (only domestic venues where India has lost more than once in the last 10 years, I believe, with 3 ea) or at Nagpur (most suits SA).

They'll be glad to not play at the fortresses at Kotla and Eden Gardens but that's for them not to lose tests.

Kanpur has something of a reputation for spin, and spinners have done well at Ahmedabad and Chennai too. So this Harris guy better be real good.

All in all, SA has drawn a bit of a short straw in terms of venues for winning a test in India (which you have to do atleast once to win a series).

I'd hope, for India's sake, that they had the sense to deliberately schedule the matches at the grounds that gave them the best chance of spin-friendly wickets.

Gotta say, though, it's news to me about typical pitches at Nagpur or Green Park, Kanpur offering anything to any type of bowler whatsoever. Every Test bar 1 (the one where that idiot at the VCA deliberately sabotaged India's prospects by ordering a green pitch against Australia) that I've taken note of on those grounds has seen no seam, no spin, and been pretty to very slow.

On the other hand, I can't remember a non-spin-friendly pitch at the Chepauk Stadium, Chennai (Honest would know best there of course) - not only does it tend to offer turn, but bounce too. Fancy both Harris and Kumble (as usual) to do very well in that Test.

 

[silentstriker]

Unfortunately i think neither side has a full strength bowling attack. Ishant and Zaheer are out for India, and unfortunately for all concerned Irfan may play in the first test. I do long for the day of seeing Praveen Kumar, Zaheer Khan and Ishant Sharma in the same side along with Sreesanth as 12th because that has the potential to be one of the best bowling attacks going around, not just in terms of the skill available but also in variation.

You have Praveen over RP Singh, or even Munaf Patel? Why would you say that? I am genuinely interested because I've seen all his international performances, and though he has bowled well in a couple games - I don't see any big upside, especially with his pace.

Obviously Munaf isn't doing well of late, but I still think he has more potential than Praveen. With that said, he has an exceptional domestic record, so you may very well be right.

 

[Richard]

Richard

India collapsed in SA (as they did in Sydney) and are renowned chokers

Renowned by those who don't know what they're on about maybe. They hardly "collapsed" in South Africa, the South Africans just played exceedingly well to drag the series back. And they were beaten more by Umpiring than Australia in the SCG Test.

They beat a second string England attack

Only bowler of note missing from that series was Hoggard. In Sidebottom and Tremlett India faced bowlers that presented a very stern challenge indeed, and did extremely well to win the series.

And WI????????? They're Bangladesh in a more tourist friendly environment

Nonsense, West Indies are far, far stronger than Bangladesh. India's win in West Indies was a notable one, their first success outside the subcontinent against a Test-class team for 20 years.

Harris is no world beater but he'll keep it tight enough

Steyn looks the goods but is young and significantly better than any Indian pacer (forget Ishant - he's out but hasnt worked out how to dismiss batsmen anyway)

Ntini has taken 300+ wickets but is dodgy away from home

Mørkel is hardly mentioned but is a taller, quicker version of Ishant (i.e. remarkably underrated potential)

Kallis is taking wickets again

Smith runs hot and cold but his last innings was a double

etc etc etc

I don't rate the chances of either Ntini or Kallis to do much of note in India, nor Morkel really. Steyn has yet to be tested consistently against a high-calibre batting side on flat surfaces since his recent purple patch started, and the 4 occasions he has faced such things since he's not done that much of note, so he has much to prove. Harris, however, should be able to take a few wickets if the surfaces aid him. And aside from Kallis, as already mentioned, South Africa's batting currently looks decidedly shaky. I'd not be feeling terribly confident in them to be scoring many big totals.

 

[Salamuddin]

Not optimism (as I dont care who wins) but realism

SA are being substantially underrated. They've won 2 recent series in the sub-continent, beaten India of late, and have the better bowling attack

On the other hand, India are suddenly world-beaters because they LOST a close series against a rebuilding Australia in non-bouncy conditions

Just how this makes them the certainties that some claim is totally beyond me

But South Africa beat a Pakistan side that was rebuilding , a New Zealand side that's not very good at test level and particularly so on the fast bouncy wickets of South Africa, a weak West Indies team at home as well and bottom ranked Bangladesh.

Even then the Saffies dropped a home test to West Indies....if they were that good, they would have cleaned up the Windies at least 2-0 and were in serious trouble in that first test
against Bangladesh.

You seriously think on that evidence they are a serious chance to beat India in India ????????

 

[Salamuddin]

Whether they were out and out the best team in the 2nd test is not beyond doubt. They definetly got the better of the conditions AFAIC and i think had they been put in to bat first we might have seen a reversal in the result. There isnt much doubt that they were the better team at the Oval, but India have traditionally had little difficulty at the Oval for the better part of the last 30 years. Im struggling to think of a time they actually came close to losing a game at the Oval.
As you yourself have noted, they almost certainly deserved to lose the first test, and no matter what way you look at it, I cant see how it should not have been anything less than a 1-1 scoreline.

Regarding the 2nd test.....I don't think it was a simple case of the toss determined the match....England were incompetent in their first innings. That was not a 180 all out pitch.
If England had scrounged to 300, entirely possible with application (that pitch was hardly the minefield) that it was made out to be, they may well have won given that India struggled to 70 odd for the loss of 3 wickets in the 2nd dig.

 

[ret]

I think that this S African team is good overall but also has a few Qs to it

Batting - Smith, McKenzie, Amla, Kallis, Prince, de Villiars, Boucher
Bowling - Styen, Nitini, Morkel, Harris

Looking at the batting line up, i guess Ind needs 3 good balls, i.e. one each for Smith, Kallis and Boucher .... the rest are inconsistent and could throw wkts away at signs of pressure

Bowling would be useful at Chennai but not at A'bad and Kanpur, unless these guys swing and reverse swing

If Sehwag gets on a roll then not only will he get big ones but also get those big ones in quick time, which will demoralize the South African attack and make it easier for other Ind batsmen .... Sehwag is the key player coz if he stays for a couple of sessions then it will become very difficult for S A bowlers

 

[popepouri]

I think that this S African team is good overall but also has a few Qs to it

Batting - Smith, McKenzie, Amla, Kallis, Prince, de Villiars, Boucher
Bowling - Styen, Nitini, Mørkel, Harris

Looking at the batting line up, i guess Ind needs 3 good balls, i.e. one each for Smith, Kallis and Boucher .... the rest are inconsistent and could throw wkts away at signs of pressure

Bowling would be useful at Chennai but not at A'bad and Kanpur, unless these guys swing and reverse swing

If Sehwag gets on a roll then not only will he get big ones but also get those big ones in quick time, which will demoralize the South African attack and make it easier for other Ind batsmen .... Sehwag is the key player coz if he stays for a couple of sessions then it will become very difficult for S A bowlers

Don't discount Prince. The guy is level-headed especially when no one is batting well.

 

[pasag]

u r on .... 1 week or 1 mth

Chuck in getting rid of TXT speak and you're on. Say two weeks?

A fortnight? You're on.

Sorry mate ^

 

[tooextracool]

Regarding the 2nd test.....I don't think it was a simple case of the toss determined the match....England were incompetent in their first innings. That was not a 180 all out pitch.
If England had scrounged to 300, entirely possible with application (that pitch was hardly the minefield) that it was made out to be, they may well have won given that India struggled to 70 odd for the loss of 3 wickets in the 2nd dig.

Oh England could have applied themselves more, but there isnt much doubt in my mind that the pitch was considerably better to bat on Day 2 than it was on Day 1. From memory, Bell and Pietersen were dismissed by deliveries that swung prodigiously while Vaughan and Collingwood got deliveries that seamed off the pitch. None were out from poor strokes. I would venture to suggest that only Strauss and Prior were dismissed from ordinary strokes and even they were both dismissed caught behind the wicket. I personally think that were India to bat in the same conditions they wouldnt have scored much more as bar Tendulkar, Dravid and Laxman, none of their players are particularly adept against swing or seam. Certainly Jaffer and Ganguly would have struggled to score in the vicinity in which they ended up scoring.

 

[ret]

Chuck in getting rid of TXT speak and you're on. Say two weeks?

two weeks .... done

if i m suppose to chuck in getting rid of TXT speak then you are getting rid of normal speak and then use TXT speak .... what do u say??

 

[tooextracool]

You have Praveen over RP Singh, or even Munaf Patel? Why would you say that? I am genuinely interested because I've seen all his international performances, and though he has bowled well in a couple games - I don't see any big upside, especially with his pace.

Obviously Munaf isn't doing well of late, but I still think he has more potential than Praveen. With that said, he has an exceptional domestic record, so you may very well be right.

Forgot about RP Singh actually, probably at this point a better bet than the rest.
As far as Praveen Kumar is concerned, he is a bit lacking in pace, but rarely have i ever seen anyone that is capable of swinging the ball as much as he generally does in both directions
For someone who is only 21 the kind of control that he displays is remarkable and i feel that he would be quite a handful even if he continues to bowl at 80odd mph. Certainly think of him as more talented than the rather talked up Ishant Sharma.

 

[tooextracool]

But South Africa beat a Pakistan side that was rebuilding.

I think the major reason for their victory in Pakistan was the kind of the pitches that were prepared. Pakistan in essence decided to neutralize their 2 best bowlers (Asif and Gul) by producing wickets so slow that even a ferrari wouldnt generate much pace on it.

 

[honestbharani]

I'd hope, for India's sake, that they had the sense to deliberately schedule the matches at the grounds that gave them the best chance of spin-friendly wickets.

Gotta say, though, it's news to me about typical pitches at Nagpur or Green Park, Kanpur offering anything to any type of bowler whatsoever. Every Test bar 1 (the one where that idiot at the VCA deliberately sabotaged India's prospects by ordering a green pitch against Australia) that I've taken note of on those grounds has seen no seam, no spin, and been pretty to very slow.

On the other hand, I can't remember a non-spin-friendly pitch at the Chepauk Stadium, Chennai (Honest would know best there of course) - not only does it tend to offer turn, but bounce too. Fancy both Harris and Kumble (as usual) to do very well in that Test.

The turn and spin in Chepauk is exaggerated. The main thing here is you get good value for your skills, esp. if the match is held in the proper time like after Jan but before April. That is generally the best time to play at the Chepauk.



Chepauk is one of the very few grounds in India which gives you good and fair bounce at a decent pace. So the strokemakers generally enjoy it here, plus the wonderful outfield and a not so long boundary always make it enjoyable for good batsmen... The ball comes on to the bat more than in other pitches across the country, where you get slow and low conditions sometimes and the strokemakers are hampered as much as the bowlers are. Plus, there is the bounce and the cauldron like setting (it is closed all around the ground with concrete stands) and, being so close to the beach, you do get a good wind across as well... These will always encourage the bowlers, seamers and spinners alike and as I said, you do get value for the effort you put in and the skill you have.


But generally, the spinners and batsmen enjoy this pitch more than the pacemen do, but it is only because the seamers generally come in with preconceived notions about the track. Prasad took a 6 fer on the 4th day against Pakistan and Shahid Afridi scored a brilliant 100 in the same inning, opening the batting. Tells you why there is a bit for everyone on this pitch... Saqlain took a 5 fer the next day and also the day before..

 

[jeevan]

I'd hope, for India's sake, that they had the sense to deliberately schedule the matches at the grounds that gave them the best chance of spin-friendly wickets.

Gotta say, though, it's news to me about typical pitches at Nagpur or Green Park, Kanpur offering anything to any type of bowler whatsoever. Every Test bar 1 (the one where that idiot at the VCA deliberately sabotaged India's prospects by ordering a green pitch against Australia) that I've taken note of on those grounds has seen no seam, no spin, and been pretty to very slow.

On the other hand, I can't remember a non-spin-friendly pitch at the Chepauk Stadium, Chennai (Honest would know best there of course) - not only does it tend to offer turn, but bounce too. Fancy both Harris and Kumble (as usual) to do very well in that Test.

Kanpur is the famous venue of Jasu Patel's 9-for, though that was a looong time ago - legendary event in Indian cricket. More recently, besides Kumble & Indian spinners, recently Paul Adams & Vettori have taken 5-fors in an innings there.

As for Nagpur, 'that' test was unusual, but my impression is that this is the best seamers can hope for in India on other days too. Cricinfo write-up (only place I could think of where grounds are described) seems to concur.

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/india/content/ground/58344.html

(For scheduling of tests in India, there is a complicated zonal allotment, ie politics involved. So it is not the best interests of the Indian team involved, else we'd never be playing at Bangalore - Dravid's home ground , though I think he's never won a test there. Imagine that).