***Official*** South Africa in India

[Arjun]

I believe that Ganguly has shown himself as a capable fifth bowler recently too.

Let him bowl first-change on a green-top, or take off eight overs each off RP Singh. If he can bowl as much as him, he's proven himself as a fifth bowler.

 

[honestbharani]

It'll seperate the best from the average batsmen certainly. The cream always rises to the top, and it'll be fairly indicative in the domestic circuit anyway which batsmen are most likely to cope with International Cricket and the difficult conditions encountered on away tours of England, New Zealand, South Africa and Australia.

It'll also eliminate all these greater than 50 batting averages that even mediocre batsmen have in Indian domestic cricket. Not only that, it'll encourage more people in India to take up fast bowling as a career option. Perservere I say, in the long run it'll be good for us.

You wont go anywhere by preparing greentops. It is the reverse of flat tracks. You can identify good batsmen but you won't be able to see who are the best bowlers.... Ideally, you want pitches to play according to their nature. A track like Chennai, inspite of all the clay content added, will never really aid fast bowling much, unless overhead conditions and uncovered pitches come in..... Let the pitches play to their nature... You prepare the pitch as well as you can, try to shave off excessive grass while making sure there is enough in it to bind it together at least till 3 days (FC matches are 4 days). At the same time, you want to see it bounce decently as well. IN fact, I won't tamper with the pitches too much at all in the FC games. AFAIC, we get a decent variety of pitches in the Ranji Trophy in India and it is more than enough to seperate the wheat from the chaff. All the selectors need to do is cut out the zonal bias crap and try and see as many games as they can and get decent observers who can impartially report to them about the games that they are not able to see..... This way each performance will be put in a better context than just the score books and we will have a better way to rate players.

 

[Arjun]

Am with Goughy here, the Indian batting lineup looks too shallow and especially with Tendulkar out and an out of form Dhoni, it's not the best move. It is correct that an extra batsman probably wouldn't have made much of a difference here, but in general this is a pretty poor squad structure and not one I would want to see if I was an Indian fan.

When you compare Pathan or a bowler with Tendulkar, there's a big gap. But compared to Yuvraj Singh or Mohammed Kaif, it's the bowler who's more valuable. A wicket is more valuable than the twenty runs that one of them may score.

 

[Arjun]

The flip side is that we will get 70mph seam bowlers (e.g Bhattia) succeeding to take wickets and perhaps the truely talented bowlers will not show themselves. However, when looking to find the cream of batsman, it will be the best thing to do.

That's actually a good thing. Bhatia, to begin with, is not merely a 70mph bowler, but a middle-order batsman filling in for a seamer, bowling at 70mph. Moreover, the faster and more talented bowlers will be encouraged to bowl more aggressively, and faster. That's better than spinners bowling for long hours and taking wickets few and far between.

 

[Manee]

Thanks. AFAIK, Anderson, unfortunately, really only has that extra yard of pace when he's got some rhythm behind him. He seemed no faster than RP Singh during the Ashes 2006/07, for instance.

Anderson does occasionally come out with quick spells, even when he goes for runs though.

 

[pasag]

When you compare Pathan or a bowler with Tendulkar, there's a big gap. But compared to Yuvraj Singh or Mohammed Kaif, it's the bowler who's more valuable. A wicket is more valuable than the twenty runs that one of them may score.

Well yeah, Yuvraj for sure. But Kaif or Badrinath etc? I doubt it. If Dhoni was in form and consistently scoring, then I might discuss it, but I can't really see the added bonus of one bowler overtaking the downside of a truncated batting lineup, not only as a general rule but especially over here.

 

[Manee]

That's actually a good thing. Bhatia, to begin with, is not merely a 70mph bowler, but a middle-order batsman filling in for a seamer, bowling at 70mph. Moreover, the faster and more talented bowlers will be encouraged to bowl more aggressively, and faster. That's better than spinners bowling for long hours and taking wickets few and far between.

Yes, but having him top the Ranji wicket takers list or something similar will be a gross injustice. He is a Ganguly-esque bowling batsman and nothing more. Pitches which will display him as anything more as clearly insufficient. Slightly off topic, but what sort of pace were the unknowns who topped the Ranji Trophy wicket takers list: Sudeep Tyagi and R Vinay Kumar.

I agree about your comment about the faster and more talented bowlers, but how many will be discouraged by the opposite mindset - it is a crucial balance.

 

[irfan]

Just thought I'd fill you fellas up with your some interesting Dale Steyn stats:

Since his comeback into the Saffies side (mid 2006):
He has taken 106 wickets over 19 tests @ 18.86 and at a ridiculous strike rate of 32.34.
Thats on average a wicket at less than 5 and a half overs!

That strike rate is actually the best ever and is quite outrageous considering all the sub40 strike rates are dominated by bowlers who bowled on uncovered pitches.

Steyn has taken 3 wickets or more in his last 7 outings, and aside from his 8 five-fors and 2 10-fors, he also has 8 four-fors. He has only gone wicketless ONCE in his last 23 bowling perfomances, just shows you the wicket-taking ability of the man.

Let's all pray that he stays injury free and torments many a batsmen (preferably not India's though)

 

[Arjun]

Well yeah, Yuvraj for sure. But Kaif or Badrinath etc? I doubt it. If Dhoni was in form and consistently scoring, then I might discuss it, but I can't really see the added bonus of one bowler overtaking the downside of a truncated batting lineup, not only as a general rule but especially over here.

Maybe over here, when the pitch is dangerously favouring the bowlers, but not so much in general.

And what's so special about Kaif and Badrinath? Do you expect a double century when they make the XI? Sure, they'll make a 40 at best, but when the opposition counterpart makes 80, what use is it? A fifth bowler could have got him out cheaply. The added bonus of a wicket is worth far more, especially when it happens to be an early wicket or a wicket of Jacques Kallis. Badrinath is unproven, while we've seen Kaif and his average under 40, in India, in domestics. When Ganguly and Laxman both fail, how can Badri do any better? And well enough to save the team? You mention Dhoni having to be in form, but these lean patches happen to everyone, even Gilchrist and Boucher.

 

[DaRick]

Being an Indian fan, it saddens me to say this but that's a fair assessment. He did bowl well in Australia and better than that average of 39 suggests, but he's got two things going against him. He seems to be a little weak mentally like most Indian fast bowlers and as we've found out, when there's no swing he's got little to rely on.

Only occassionally, for mine (I have listed those occasions). Often he was poor-to-dismal where he wasn't absent entirely. An average of 39 (indicating some good spells in a sea of dross ala Brett Lee in the 2005 Ashes or all-round mediocrity) is, to me, fair enough.

On another note, India's effort so far has been laughable. They've collapsed like a Jenga block, on a pitch which scarcely demanded it. Considering they scored 600+ (mostly due to Sehwag/Dravid, admittedly, but still) that's even more damning.

Maybe I'm talking too soon, but was Peter Roebuck serious when he annointed them "the new Australia"? Or was he just being hyperbolic (and with hindsight, moronic)?

 

[Arjun]

Yes, but having him top the Ranji wicket takers list or something similar will be a gross injustice. He is a Ganguly-esque bowling batsman and nothing more. Pitches which will display him as anything more as clearly insufficient. Slightly off topic, but what sort of pace were the unknowns who topped the Ranji Trophy wicket takers list: Sudeep Tyagi and R Vinay Kumar.

I agree about your comment about the faster and more talented bowlers, but how many will be discouraged by the opposite mindset - it is a crucial balance.

It's not a bad idea, after all, when a top-six batsman returns such good figures, the Indian team won't have to keep picking five bowlers (crunching the batting lineup) or getting stuck with six batsmen (squashing the bowling) so often. In fact, a Ganguly-esque bowling batsman would be ideal, as he can play as a fifth bowler as well. We'd expect one batsman (at least Ganguly or Sehwag) to regularly turn an arm over for 22 overs an innings, and they can be productive, but it isn't happening.

 

[DaRick]

Anderson does occasionally come out with quick spells, even when he goes for runs though.

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that, when he lacks rhythm (as is all too often the case), he lacks the ability to bowl much quicker than RP Singh. Besides, he often does go for runs, anyway (his RPO is 3.81 - far too high, for mine), so that's not saying a whole lot.

 

[Manee]

I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that, when he lacks rhythm (as is all too often the case), he lacks the ability to bowl much quicker than RP Singh. Besides, he often does go for runs, anyway (his RPO is 3.81 - far too high, for mine), so that's not saying a whole lot.

True. The sad thing, as I mentioned earlier, is that RP Singh bowls at 140-145kph in T20 matches but simply lacks anything near the stamina to do it in Test matches.

 

[pasag]

Maybe over here, when the pitch is dangerously favouring the bowlers, but not so much in general.

And what's so special about Kaif and Badrinath? Do you expect a double century when they make the XI? Sure, they'll make a 40 at best, but when the opposition counterpart makes 80, what use is it? A fifth bowler could have got him out cheaply. The added bonus of a wicket is worth far more, especially when it happens to be an early wicket or a wicket of Jacques Kallis. Badrinath is unproven, while we've seen Kaif and his average under 40, in India, in domestics. When Ganguly and Laxman both fail, how can Badri do any better? And well enough to save the team? You mention Dhoni having to be in form, but these lean patches happen to everyone, even Gilchrist and Boucher.

Sure these lean patches happen to everyone, who was disputing that? The point is when you have Dhoni not being consistent in recent times, 5 bowlers is even more of a risk. The same would apply to any team in a similar position.

And what's with the negative assumptions on Kaif and Badrinath? The way you are structuring the five bowler debate is 'crap batsman vs gun bowler?' But that really isn't the case though.

 

[Manee]

I feel that India would need two batsman of the quality of Ramesh Powar or Irfan Pathan to play five bowlers.

 

[jeevan]

This is what to do even when you are 6-down for almost nothing.

http://content-usa.cricinfo.com/pakvind/engine/match/234783.html

Top order imploded and that was the main problem by far, but even as far down as Dhoni-Pathan, we had a chance of putting up something similar.

 

[andruid]

Hmm, I do not know if this has been pointed out yet but Makhaya Ntini looks to be having an enormously good series wicket wise despite all the hullabaloo about him not being at all effective in the subcontinent.

 

[Anil]

this test is over...

 

[Shaggy Alfresco]

This is what to do even when you are 6-down for almost nothing.

Get your wicketkeeper to hit a century off 130 balls? That's not going to happen every collapse.

 

[funnygirl]

We got exposed by SA bowling attack in a slightly moving wicket . The great batting line up couldn't last one full session .I really hope we would make a great come back .