• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

***Official*** South Africa in England

Should Freddy be included in team for the second Test?


  • Total voters
    44

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
I think it's a bit different to compare the situation with Pietersen coming over than someone like Jacques Rudolph for example. Pietersen, rightly or wrongly, felt that political issues were holding his progression in SA cricket back, and as he has an English parent decided to move to England and qualify here. The more recent stream of Saffers coming over since about 2005ish after the Koplak issue come to the fore in cricket have been purely financially motivated. Jacques Rudolph IMO harbours no ambition to play for England in the future (though he may well do if he qualifies, but I don't think that is a goal of his), he just feels he can make a better living for himself in England than in SA. The only way to stop the latest exodus is the implementation of the new interpretation of the Kolpak rule and an increased in investment in SA domestic cricket so that young players don't see the cash on offer in county cricket and jump over.
Well, it's all speculation, really. However, I personally doubt Rudolph would be over in England if not for the "target" system. You're free to disagree and I'm sure there are people who know a lot more about it than I do, but I just get the feeling about him that he'd have stayed on if he had more faith and pride in the administration he was working for.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
I dunno mate, he's in a hole, yes. Trouble is, from what I've seen of him batting right now, he looks like he's barely hitting the ball off the square. Really struggling with his decision-making. If there's one thing Kallis' game depends on, it's his mentality. If that's malfunctioning, his game is affected to the point where he's late on the ball, not playing his shots, etc. Like I said, another year or so of this sort of form and the question will need to be asked at least.

When a bloke like him can't even winkle out a tough 50 in the mould of AB (that's Border, not Abraham), something is seriously wrong and he might just need a rest. Continuing to play him might be just making the problem worse, especially if it's in his head because I haven't seen any problems with his technique.
He's really looking a shadow of himself just now. Although he's totally Fred's bunny (took al of two balls, only one of which was legal, for Sir Frederick to get him yesterday) so without the great man charging in he may be a different player.

What i have noticed is a lack of feet movement (or rather, some poor feet movement) to some balls outside off, particularly those full and with decent pace. However whether thats necessarily completely technical, or is mental (I didn't watch enough of Ind vs. SA nor Eng vs. SA to properly give my opinion) I am unsure.

When would you suggest a rest? If you look over his recent scores, he's managed to squeeze some decent to good knocks here and there. Poor England series of course, but he did cross 50 once (which is obviously crap for Kallis), and he tonned up in an important match vs. India. Can't quite recall what he did vs. West Indies, but I do recall some runs being scored too.

The thing is, I've always thought of Kallis, even more-so than Dravid (because of the mental strain Dravid has to go through being an Indian cricketer and captain/former captain), that Kallis is the most likely to continue churning out runs no matter how old he gets, because he has such a solid technique and strong desire to score runs. I still feel (though less confident) that he'll take the record for most test runs by the time he retires, because unlike Ponting (who relies on more natural talent, his eye and poise/time when playing the ball) Kallis is manufactured solely on his technique.
Funnily enough Botham was suggesting in the last ODI (semi-seriously) that Kallis's eyes have gone.

Can't help but feel bad at South Africa' predicament atm
Nah... :p

I think it's a bit different to compare the situation with Pietersen coming over than someone like Jacques Rudolph for example. Pietersen, rightly or wrongly, felt that political issues were holding his progression in SA cricket back, and as he has an English parent decided to move to England and qualify here. The more recent stream of Saffers coming over since about 2005ish after the Koplak issue come to the fore in cricket have been purely financially motivated. Jacques Rudolph IMO harbours no ambition to play for England in the future (though he may well do if he qualifies, but I don't think that is a goal of his), he just feels he can make a better living for himself in England than in SA. The only way to stop the latest exodus is the implementation of the new interpretation of the Kolpak rule and an increased in investment in SA domestic cricket so that young players don't see the cash on offer in county cricket and jump over.

Remember that Pietersen came over to England in 2000/2001 which was several years before the Kolpak ruling was used in cricket. I don't think his situation is really comparable at all to the current swathe of Saffers in county cricket.
To be fair to the ECB we're yet to call on any players who've represented any other test nations previously even when (as with Pothas & Saqlain) one can make pretty solid cases for them.

I do agree with your broader point tho; the Kolpak situation is lose/lose. It weakens SA's player base and fills up our domestic teams with non-English qualified players.
 

Uppercut

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Kallis topped the bowling averages for both teams in his last test series. His haul of ten wickets contained only one tail-ender, Jimmy Anderson, and he took his wickets at a greater strike-rate than any other bowler. I sincerely hope those questioning his place in the side are referring exclusively to the ODI side.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
I've never been to South Africa myself so perhaps I try not to say too much on this issue, but sometimes I just can't resist. I'd be surprised if most South Africans don't look back on this in fifty years and shake their heads.
Many of the people running the country would not care if cricket didnt exist in SA in 50 years.

Just as ZANU-PF didnt care a hoot about Zim cricket. Obviously there would be some that care but some very influencial people wouldnt piss on the burning body of South African cricket.
 

pup11

International Coach
I would say Amla, he has looked pretty good in the last two Odi's, but not to forget Kallis is just not in the team for his batting, he can still be more than handy with the ball, so if they drop him then they would have to find a decent batting all-rounder to fill the void left by him.
Though i still think its a bit pre-mateurish to talk about axing Kallis from any form of the game.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Ah, Scaly. When you try to say something positive it's like a conservative old man awkwardly attempting to hug his gay son :p
Well, if this was SA being 4-0 up he'd be trying to denounce it as completely 100% meaningless, the way he did when SA outclassed England in the ODIs in 2004/05.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Well, if this was SA being 4-0 up he'd be trying to denounce it as completely 100% meaningless, the way he did when SA outclassed England in the ODIs in 2004/05.
Well at least he is being consistent. He was saying this England 4-0 lead is pretty much meaningless.

Hard to criticise him for being consistent in his viewpoint.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Lol, no dawg i refering to his overall performances in OD cricket this season which obviously have impressed all that have seen him.
His extraordinary performance of passing 50 twice in 16 innings, you mean?
As far i gather OD cricket is definately his strenght. I liked very much what i saw of him especially the way he played Harmison, he has the raw stuff. So basically my position on Denly is another season where he comtinues to improve & between now & 2011 he should be involved in the ODI set-up.
He's almost never performed better in OD than FC cricket.
Nah can't agree with that. Jones never looked suited to batting at the top of the order while Mustard doesn't have to technique to be a long-term success IMO.

Prior has the raw stuff i'm willing to give him this series & winter tours to WI & IND to find his consistency, if then maybe we could look at Davies or Foster depending on the team balance.
We've already wasted 1 winter and 1 summer (and now another half of a summer). It'd be nice if we didn't waste any more, though such a thing is more than possible.
Ah yes only you somhow failed to give him due props for his batting @ 6 recently for some strange reason..
Did I?
Along with Anderson your foolish condemning of Collingwood is well documented & until this day son i still don't know what more you want from the man.
Far more than either have ever produced, really. Though both have occasionally had their moments they've been poor far more often than they've been good and it's baffling how some people fail to see that.
Lol, yep its very typical for a guy now making his international debut to come into a WC encounter in a struggling side againts SRI & play such an innings it happens all the time..
No it's not typical - but once again all that showed is that he had a good head on his shoulders. Your strokeplaying skills are a different issue.
:laugh: , son you are the best..
Ind33d.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Well at least he is being consistent. He was saying this England 4-0 lead is pretty much meaningless.
Nah, he was attaching some meaning - however little - to it when it was the team he liked best which that made look good, where he'd have been denouncing it in its entirity had it been the other way around. That's virtually all he ever does. Virtually every one of his comments can in some way be traced back to which team is it involves.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Nah, he was attaching some meaning - however little - to it when it was the team he liked best which that made look good, where he'd have been denouncing it in its entirity had it been the other way around. That's virtually all he ever does. Virtually every one of his comments can in some way be traced back to which team is it involves.
I think you have very little ammunition to attack him with here.

He pretty much said that its not worth much but being 4-0 up is beter than being 0-4 down.

Cant see how anyone can fault that. Especially myself as I share similar sentiments. If England were 0-4 down I wouldnt be overly bothered but winning is certainly preferable even though Im not keen on the format.

Its not like Scaly has started whooping it up over the victory. His exact quote downplayed the lead.

To criticise him here sounds petty.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Oh, it pretty well invariably will - I can offer criticism to just about anything that comes off his keyboard.

Seriously, though, if it's worth so little there's no point even commenting. What he said was "it's only limited-overs stuff but 4-0 sounds nice". That isn't the same as "4-0 is better than 0-4" - even if the latter are your thoughts on the matter.

His comments in 2004/05 were along the lines of "it's limited-overs stuff after a Test series, therefore 1-4 is completely irrelevant". Not "yeah it's nice for SA and not that nice for England" but "it's completely irrelevant".

See?
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Apparently Gerald Majola is going around the English counties with a cheque book trying to coax Kolpak players back. Mickey Arthur and Graeme Smith want Ryan McLaren.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Apparently Gerald Majola is going around the English counties with a cheque book trying to coax Kolpak players back. Mickey Arthur and Graeme Smith want Ryan McLaren.
Interesting.

If I can find a list Ill grade the non-overseas Saffies in CC.

A- Help national team now and in the furure
B- Help national team now OR in the future
C- Strengthen domestic cricket and A team depth
D- Not needed by SA cricket

Id be interested in how others valu them as well.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Interesting.

If I can find a list Ill grade the non-overseas Saffies in CC.

A- Help national team now and in the furure
B- Help national team now OR in the future
C- Strengthen domestic cricket or A team depth
D- Not needed by SA cricket

Id be interested in how others valu them as well.
Using this list from 8 months ago.

A
Ryan McLaren
Jacques Rudolph
Jonathan Trott
B
Craig Kieswetter
Andrew Hall
Justin Kemp
C
Friedel de Wet
Nicky Boje
Martin van Jaarsveld
Dale Benkenstein
Greg Smith
Boeta Dippenaar
HD Ackerman
Francois du Plessis
D
Chad Keegan
Gareth Berg
Riki Wessels
Dawid Malan
Nick Compton
Garnett Kruger
Claude Henderson
Neil Dexter
Nic Pothas
Kevin Latouf
Michael Lumb
Grant Hodnett
Garry Park
Deon Kruis
Stephen Moore
Tim Groenewald
Neil Carter
Ant Botha
Jade Dernbach
Charl Willoughby

So for all the names, if I was SA cricket I would only focus on 6 names.
Ryan McLaren, Jacques Rudolph, Jonathan Trott, Craig Kieswetter, Andrew Hall and Justin Kemp

Given Trott has played T20Is for Eng then I doubt he can play for SA anymore so that takes the number to entice down to 5.
 
Last edited:

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Interesting.

If I can find a list Ill grade the non-overseas Saffies in CC.

A- Help national team now and in the furure
B- Help national team now OR in the future
C- Strengthen domestic cricket and A team depth
D- Not needed by SA cricket

Id be interested in how others valu them as well.
Due to the ICL there isn't many who can offer that much to South Africa - even Ryan McLaren would surely only be a ODI player. It be interesting to see if CSA can pull something off, apparently they have some tri-series going on in the next week or so and all the seniors plays don't want anything to do with it whilst the A boys are busy with the Sri Lankans and aside from a couple they are hopelessly not good enough for the international arena.

The IPL is something which could entice the likes of McLaren into the fold, one of the reasons Andre Nel stayed was that an IPL contract was sorted out for him by CSA.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Using this list from 8 months ago.

A
Ryan McLaren
Jacques Rudolph
Jonathan Trott
B
Craig Kieswetter
Andrew Hall
Justin Kemp
C
Friedel de Wet
Nicky Boje
Martin van Jaarsveld
Dale Benkenstein
Greg Smith
Boeta Dippenaar
HD Ackerman
Francois du Plessis
D
Chad Keegan
Gareth Berg
Riki Wessels
Dawid Malan
Nick Compton
Garnett Kruger
Claude Henderson
Neil Dexter
Nic Pothas
Kevin Latouf
Michael Lumb
Grant Hodnett
Garry Park
Deon Kruis
Stephen Moore
Tim Groenewald
Neil Carter
Ant Botha
Jade Dernbach
Charl Willoughby

So for all the names, if I was SA cricket I would only focus on 6 names.
Ryan McLaren, Jacques Rudolph, Jonathan Trott, Craig Kieswetter, Andrew Hall and Justin Kemp

Given Trott has played T20Is for Eng then I doubt he can play for SA anymore so that takes the number to entice down to 5.
I would punt for Kieswetter, McLaren and Malan. Some of those players listed still play in South Africa but are not good enough for international honours.

Alfonso Thomas is one Kolpak cricketer who strangely despite being a Kolpak was in South Africa's Champions Trophy squad.
 

Top