***Official*** South Africa in England

[Goughy]

Yeah, that's the best you can do so I must be right

We're awesome. Number 2 in the world won't do us justice!

You are in the wrong job.

You need to be a lifestyle coach. Ive never known such positivity.

GIMH- Making sad people happy. $200 a hour

 

[GIMH]

(Y) I do my best.

 

[zaremba]

I don't normally pay much attention to the hit-and-giggle stuff (see Australia 2006/7 - who won the series that mattered?) but I have to say I've been very impressed with the cricket that England have played since KP took over. Yes the Saffers are mentally gone, which is surprising in itself, but we have absolutely thrashed them, and done so in fine style.

Hooray.

 

[Top_Cat]

Well someone has to start the ball rolling......

How long can South Africa keep carrying Kallis in the ODI side? Time for a 'rest', myself.

His test form is a bit of a worry too but I wouldn't be thinking of dropping him just yet. Another year of this sort of form, however...... If he dawdles against Australia, reckon there'll be questions asked because I reckon SA are banking on him to fire-up against the Aussies.

 

[Jono]

Lol, not sure whether you're taking the piss regarding Kallis in tests, but the fact that this is Kallis in 'bad form', suggests how undroppable he is.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah, that's the best you can do so I must be right

We're awesome. Number 2 in the world won't do us justice!

You said "in the world", not "currently playing international cricket". He was nearby, it was too easy

Seriously, players have such different roles in LO cricket that it's hard to compare, but he's definitely up there. Others include Lee, Bracken, Vettori and forgotten-man Shane Bond. If by LO you include T20s, i'd probably go for Vettori. Although obviously Flintoff's batting means he's a more valuable team member than any of the above.

 

[Top_Cat]

Lol, not sure whether you're taking the piss regarding Kallis in tests, but the fact that this is Kallis in 'bad form', suggests how undroppable he is.

I dunno mate, he's in a hole, yes. Trouble is, from what I've seen of him batting right now, he looks like he's barely hitting the ball off the square. Really struggling with his decision-making. If there's one thing Kallis' game depends on, it's his mentality. If that's malfunctioning, his game is affected to the point where he's late on the ball, not playing his shots, etc. Like I said, another year or so of this sort of form and the question will need to be asked at least.

When a bloke like him can't even winkle out a tough 50 in the mould of AB (that's Border, not Abraham), something is seriously wrong and he might just need a rest. Continuing to play him might be just making the problem worse, especially if it's in his head because I haven't seen any problems with his technique.

 

[Jono]

What i have noticed is a lack of feet movement (or rather, some poor feet movement) to some balls outside off, particularly those full and with decent pace. However whether thats necessarily completely technical, or is mental (I didn't watch enough of Ind vs. SA nor Eng vs. SA to properly give my opinion) I am unsure.

When would you suggest a rest? If you look over his recent scores, he's managed to squeeze some decent to good knocks here and there. Poor England series of course, but he did cross 50 once (which is obviously crap for Kallis), and he tonned up in an important match vs. India. Can't quite recall what he did vs. West Indies, but I do recall some runs being scored too.

The thing is, I've always thought of Kallis, even more-so than Dravid (because of the mental strain Dravid has to go through being an Indian cricketer and captain/former captain), that Kallis is the most likely to continue churning out runs no matter how old he gets, because he has such a solid technique and strong desire to score runs. I still feel (though less confident) that he'll take the record for most test runs by the time he retires, because unlike Ponting (who relies on more natural talent, his eye and poise/time when playing the ball) Kallis is manufactured solely on his technique.

 

[Top_Cat]

When would you suggest a rest? If you look over his recent scores, he's managed to squeeze some decent to good knocks here and there. Poor England series of course, but he did cross 50 once (which is obviously crap for Kallis), and he tonned up in an important match vs. India. Can't quite recall what he did vs. West Indies, but I do recall some runs being scored too.

Perhaps I'm jumping the gun. I just don't like what I see in his game right now and aren't seeing signs he's getting out of it.

Could be just fatigue; he's played 120-odd Tests, after all.

The thing is, I've always thought of Kallis, even more-so than Dravid (because of the mental strain Dravid has to go through being an Indian cricketer and captain/former captain), that Kallis is the most likely to continue churning out runs no matter how old he gets, because he has such a solid technique and strong desire to score runs. I still feel (though less confident) that he'll take the record for most test runs by the time he retires, because unlike Ponting (who relies on more natural talent, his eye and poise/time when playing the ball) Kallis is manufactured solely on his technique.

Yeah but theyre linked (mental acuity and raw technique) and when one falls over, so does the other. A total technician like Michael Slater proved that when his bipolar depression got to him. Technique went south from there.

 

[pasag]

Who would replace him?

 

[SJS]

I dunno mate, he's in a hole, yes. Trouble is, from what I've seen of him batting right now, he looks like he's barely hitting the ball off the square. Really struggling with his decision-making. If there's one thing Kallis' game depends on, it's his mentality. If that's malfunctioning, his game is affected to the point where he's late on the ball, not playing his shots, etc. Like I said, another year or so of this sort of form and the question will need to be asked at least.

When a bloke like him can't even winkle out a tough 50 in the mould of AB (that's Border, not Abraham), something is seriously wrong and he might just need a rest. Continuing to play him might be just making the problem worse, especially if it's in his head because I haven't seen any problems with his technique.

The first ball that he faced when he came in to bat yesterday (I think it was the first) he went forward apparently blindly and tentatively, hoping the ball would be in the same line as his bat. It got an edge and trickled to the leg side.. He let go the next three and then groped again at the fifth and this time the guess did not work even approximately and the ball completely beat the bat. Kallis didn't even look surprised.

This is a man in poor form indeed. OR someone who is just not there mentally.

It can happen to anyone and South Africa would be doing him an act of kindness by letting him off for a few games. Some time off the game and then back to the nets and he will come back as strong as ever.

 

[aussie]

Can't really see Swann being an effective Test bowler, don't think many can which is why we're all a little excited about Patel's emergence.

Well his bowling wouldn't & shouldn't be the major source for wickets with the pace attack we have.

Just like with Giles he would suite the #8 role & hopefully come into his own on turners overseas.

 

[aussie]

Another season of playing 1 good knock in a televised game per season?.

No, you need much more than that.

Lol, no dawg i refering to his overall performances in OD cricket this season which obviously have impressed all that have seen him.

Well neither of them really are currently, sadly, he's struggled in the longer form this season too. But he's never done anything much in the shorter game (and yes, he's played the odd innings here and there, one of which happened to be televised, but that's not doing very much, you need far more than that to be an England prospect).

As far i gather OD cricket is definately his strenght. I liked very much what i saw of him especially the way he played Harmison, he has the raw stuff. So basically my position on Denly is another season where he comtinues to improve & between now & 2011 he should be involved in the ODI set-up.

No, apart from slogging a bit more he's virtually no different now to any previous stint in the ODI team. And no better than the Philip Mustards and Geraint Joneses.

Nah can't agree with that. Jones never looked suited to batting at the top of the order while Mustard doesn't have to technique to be a long-term success IMO.

Prior has the raw stuff i'm willing to give him this series & winter tours to WI & IND to find his consistency, if then maybe we could look at Davies or Foster depending on the team balance.

His entire ODI career.

Ah yes only you somhow failed to give him due props for his batting @ 6 recently for some strange reason..

Well, if expecting a front-line batsman to average more than early-mid-20s for the most part is foolish, then yes. Otherwise, no.

Along with Anderson your foolish condemning of Collingwood is well documented & until this day son i still don't know what more you want from the man.

Good though those innings were, they were very, very a-typical of ODI requirements. Both were based on stopping the rot with a required-rate that was always do-able, rather than scoring quickly. Even playing for England, you won't get the chance to play many innings of that type. And so far that's all that Bopara has shown the ability to do.

Lol, yep its very typical for a guy now making his international debut to come into a WC encounter in a struggling side againts SRI & play such an innings it happens all the time..

Seriously though although its obvious that Bopara is not well suited to batting @6 the fact he could play those innings were good signs. ATM he obviously wouldn't get much chance to bat higher up but he is a good back-up bat on the same level as the likes of Trott/Afzaal (if the selectors recognise them of course).

Probably.

, son you are the best..

 

[aussie]

To be fair to Patel, of our current top six (even if one substitutes Vaughan for Fred), only Pietersen maintains a higher first-class average than him. He's only been playing for five minutes, true, but he wouldn't be the worst pick ever.

True, but it proves what Andrew Miller rightly said the other day unlike the fast bowling depth their isn't any real solid quality batting depth in the test side & the fact that we could say Patel chances of appearing in the test XI are good in hindsight really isn't..

 

[pup11]

Can't help but feel bad at South Africa' predicament atm, just about nothing seems to be going right for them, somewhere down the line i think South African' dropped their guard after the Edgbaston test, and to England' credit they never let the South Africans recover after that.
I think South Africa is also in a similar position as India now, in the sense like Indian senior players, South African senior players are also under the pump, Kallis, Boucher, Ntini and Gibbs (his 74 yesterday might just give him some respite for a while i guess), but unlike the Indian youngsters the South African youngsters hardly look prepared for the international stage, and this could prove to be problem for them.

 

[aussie]

Looking at the show on sky during the rain break where they were talking about the quota system in SA it really is a disgrace.

When Vince Van der Bijl said he can't imagine an all-white SA side i was quite shocked at that position.

Listening to all those who were interviewed if they are so concerned about having a team with an even mixture of race it seems all SA need to do is pump money into area's where cricket are played even if some area's might not have those benefits (Gough or Langeveldt to correct me if i'm off track). Since really they really can't afford to be losing players of Pietersen too often.

 

[pup11]

What i have noticed is a lack of feet movement (or rather, some poor feet movement) to some balls outside off, particularly those full and with decent pace. However whether thats necessarily completely technical, or is mental (I didn't watch enough of Ind vs. SA nor Eng vs. SA to properly give my opinion) I am unsure.

When would you suggest a rest? If you look over his recent scores, he's managed to squeeze some decent to good knocks here and there. Poor England series of course, but he did cross 50 once (which is obviously crap for Kallis), and he tonned up in an important match vs. India. Can't quite recall what he did vs. West Indies, but I do recall some runs being scored too.

The thing is, I've always thought of Kallis, even more-so than Dravid (because of the mental strain Dravid has to go through being an Indian cricketer and captain/former captain), that Kallis is the most likely to continue churning out runs no matter how old he gets, because he has such a solid technique and strong desire to score runs. I still feel (though less confident) that he'll take the record for most test runs by the time he retires, because unlike Ponting (who relies on more natural talent, his eye and poise/time when playing the ball) Kallis is manufactured solely on his technique.

Kallis was never a great Odi batsmen in my book, so with age his struggle in Odi cricket doesn't really surprise me, but still the way he is getting out in surprising, his reflexes seem to have slowed down a fair bit, he doesn't seem to have the same amount of time that he used to have before while playing a delievery, but still i won't give up on him this early, he is all class and if he can concentrate a bit harder he could be back among the runs, his bowling btw has been quite decent through this tour.

 

[Prince EWS]

Looking at the show on sky during the rain break where they were talking about the quota system in SA it really is a disgrace.

When Vince Van der Bijl said he can't imagine an all-white SA side i was quite shocked at that position.

Listening to all those who were interviewed if they are so concerned about having a team with an even mixture of race it seems all SA need to do is pump money into area's where cricket are played even if some area's might not have those benefits (Gough or Langeveldt to correct me if i'm off track). Since really they really can't afford to be losing players of Pietersen too often.

People often point to Pietersen as an example and while he's a good "face of the problem" so to speak, especially given he's now captaining England, he's not the main issue. One player is always expendible within the context of an entire nation's sporting system, regardless of his stature. However, the real issue is that it's not just Pietersen... you could pick a Test team of South Africans playing in England that'd beat the West Indies and New Zealand and an ODI team that'd compete with even what South Africa themselves put out. It's become an epidemic which is the major issue.

Even ignoring my morals regarding this, it's hurting the depth of South African cricket and putting great pressure on what really could be the best domestic First Class competition in the world. All this is without even accounting for the players at amateur level who give it away in frustration.

I've never been to South Africa myself so perhaps I try not to say too much on this issue, but sometimes I just can't resist. I'd be surprised if most South Africans don't look back on this in fifty years and shake their heads.

 

[pskov]

I think it's a bit different to compare the situation with Pietersen coming over than someone like Jacques Rudolph for example. Pietersen, rightly or wrongly, felt that political issues were holding his progression in SA cricket back, and as he has an English parent decided to move to England and qualify here. The more recent stream of Saffers coming over since about 2005ish after the Koplak issue come to the fore in cricket have been purely financially motivated. Jacques Rudolph IMO harbours no ambition to play for England in the future (though he may well do if he qualifies, but I don't think that is a goal of his), he just feels he can make a better living for himself in England than in SA. The only way to stop the latest exodus is the implementation of the new interpretation of the Kolpak rule and an increased in investment in SA domestic cricket so that young players don't see the cash on offer in county cricket and jump over.

Remember that Pietersen came over to England in 2000/2001 which was several years before the Kolpak ruling was used in cricket. I don't think his situation is really comparable at all to the current swathe of Saffers in county cricket.

 

[pskov]

I read a piece after the game where Flintoff commented how much happier he was to be batting at 5 and how he feels much more comfortable at that position. I was a bit scepitcal to be honest, I didn't expect much of a difference between him at 5 or 6, but there is actually a huge statistical variation, so the man obviously knows what he's talking about.

3rd position	2000-2006	9	9	1	143	42*	17.87	182	78.57	0	0	2	17	3	
4th position	2002-2007	11	11	0	260	52	23.63	246	105.69	0	2	1	22	7	
5th position	2002-2008	43	43	10	1635	123	49.54	1737	94.12	3	11	1	164	49	
6th position	1999-2007	39	39	3	865	84	24.02	1033	83.73	0	3	3	67	20	
7th position	1999-2005	12	12	2	358	64	35.80	476	75.21	0	2	0	26	10	
8th position	2003-2003	1	1	0	16	16	16.00	18	88.88	0	0	0	2	0

To be fair, his record batting at 5 in ODIs is world class.