***Official*** South Africa in England

[Manee]

Really annoys me when commentators and experts alike go on about Hoggard losing his pace and/or nip. Hoggard doesnt bowl any slower now than he has been over the last 5 years. Hes bowled at around 80mph for as long as I can remember and he actually bowled at less than 80mph during his better spells such as his 6fer at Nagpur

The officially used term is 'zip' and this can't really be quantified by the speed gun. 'Zip' is truly the ability to make the batsman short on time at the crease and taking this into account, I assume this is due to possibly losing a bit of his hoop swing and perhaps not pitching the ball full enough.

 

[tooextracool]

I'm watching on Sky here in NZ with the volume down and listening to Test Match special on the BBC five live site. I do hope Mr Boycott is covering this test

Thats probably the best way to ignore the dire Sky commentary team. Botham's on at the moment.

 

[Zinzan]

In which case you should expect him to open if Morkel was in the side. If you don't, you're defying logic.

.

Not at all, ever heard of a thing called form? Sometimes ones needs to be proactive in their thinking and not just reactive, so full credit to Smith.

By the way Morkel has been streaks above Ntini thus far

 

[Zinzan]

Thats probably the best way to ignore the dire Sky commentary team. Botham's on at the moment.

Precisely

 

[Zinzan]

I can't seem to get working on mine. It says connecting to media then says ready, you click play and it doesn't work.

Make sure you take the "International version" option

 

[tooextracool]

The officially used term is 'zip' and this can't really be quantified by the speed gun. 'Zip' is truly the ability to make the batsman short on time at the crease and taking this into account, I assume this is due to possibly losing a bit of his hoop swing and perhaps not pitching the ball full enough.

Honestly, if Hoggard ever had any zip or nip then I'm Fred Flintstone. I mean Ive watched Hoggard for years and hes never had penetration in his bowling unless the ball was swinging and I still believe that hes exactly the same.

 

[Richard]

But who you give the new ball is hardly a massively statistically driven decision. It just doesn't make sense to select a non swing, not rapid bowler half way through a series, after an injury, and give him the new ball over your best, quickest bowler so far in the series.

I didn't say it was a statistically driven decision. I said that before now, when Nel and Morkel have played together, Nel has been given the new-ball. In fact, I'm fairly sure the only bowler (apart from Ntini obviously) who has been given the new-ball over Nel since Pollock was deprived of it is Steyn.

Smith has changed from his previous convention here. That's nothing other than stone-cold fact. That he's done it with good reason is certainly quite possible to argue, but it's not possible to argue that he hasn't done it.

 

[Richard]

Not at all, ever heard of a thing called form? Sometimes ones needs to be proactive in their thinking and not just reactive, so full credit to Smith.

Smith has generally tended to be more the latter than the former. I've not once said it was a poor decision, merely an unexpected one.

 

[GIMH]

Strauss and Cook turning into a decent partnership since Strauss's recall. had my doubts before then.

 

[Richard]

Really annoys me when commentators and experts alike go on about Hoggard losing his pace and/or nip. Hoggard doesnt bowl any slower now than he has been over the last 5 years. Hes bowled at around 80mph for as long as I can remember and he actually bowled at less than 80mph during his better spells such as his 6fer at Nagpur

Might well be erroneous on Hoggard's part, but Ntini is unquestionably bowling quite a bit slower currently than I've seen him bowl before. Only just sneaking up into the 80s.

For a non-swing bowler like him, that's not going to get him anywhere, especially on a rank slow pitch like this. Full doesn't look threatening and short looks cannon-fodder.

Disappointing to see two surfaces this slow in the same series. And even Headingley was hardly lightning.

 

[Richard]

Strauss and Cook turning into a decent partnership since Strauss's recall. had my doubts before then.

Well, Strauss was poor in 2006 and 2007, and has been good in 2008 from his 6th innings onwards. That's where his partnership with Cook improving comes from.

 

[Zinzan]

Smith has generally tended to be more the latter than the former. I've not once said it was a poor decision, merely an unexpected one.

And I said you did where exactly? I merely gave Smith credit for what I thought was a logical decision and because of this mentioned it didn't surprise me.

 

[Richard]

Nella on.

Hopefully he can get the ball up at 85mph+.

 

[Goughy]

Yeah but it's likely your expectations were based on naivety rather than inside-knowledge, as I doubt you've looked at the scorecards of matches where those three have bowled together.

Have you? This is only the 2nd Test Nel and Morkel have ever played together and the first was the debut of Morkel.

There is relevant data to draw the conclusion you did and defend it so aggressively.

Quite simply, Morkel has now overtaken Nel in the pecking order. Previously he was behind him.

Yours is a rather abrupt statement that I dont even think is accurate.

As well as hardly playing together at Test level, and Morkel now overtaking Nel; Morkel opened the bowling in his last SuperSport Series game for Titans. It isnt as if he doesnt want to.

 

[Manee]

Honestly, if Hoggard ever had any zip or nip then I'm Fred Flintstone. I mean Ive watched Hoggard for years and hes never had penetration in his bowling unless the ball was swinging and I still believe that hes exactly the same.

From what I understand, zip can merely be explained as batsmen not having the time to adjust to his swing and so getting hit on the pad or catching the edge. It is a crappy term used here to justify a crappy selection policy, but this is how I've understood it.

 

[Richard]

And I said you did where actually? I merely gave Smith credit for what I thought was a logically decision and because of this mentioned it didn't surprise me.

You said it wasn't surprising. When, simply, it should have been. Smith is more of a reactive than proactive captain normally, so you shouldn't really expect him to have changed his plans as he did.

Anyway, this really is rather pointless.

Nel bowling-around-the-wicket is potentially very effective, but hugely awkward. And generally I don't neccessarily think it'll work against Strauss - it's good against batsmen who look to go after him, but those who can leave well it can be much less effective.

 

[Richard]

Have you? This is only the 2nd Test Nel and Morkel have ever played together and the first was the debut of Morkel.

There is relevant data to draw the conclusion you did and defend it so aggressively.

Quite simply, Morkel has now overtaken Nel in the pecking order. Previously he was behind him.

Yours is a rather abrupt statement that I dont even think is accurate.

As well as hardly playing together at Test level, and Morkel now overtaking Nel; Morkel opened the bowling in his last SuperSport Series game for Titans. It isnt as if he doesnt want to.

They've also played on this tour. In both tour-games, Nel and Ntini opened.

 

[GIMH]

Well, Strauss was poor in 2006 and 2007, and has been good in 2008 from his 6th innings onwards. That's where his partnership with Cook improving comes from.

Haha yeah, true

 

[Richard]

Cook gets a genuine edge to a full ball that falls short.

Slow pitches FTL.

 

[tooextracool]

From what I understand, zip can merely be explained as batsmen not having the time to adjust to his swing and so getting hit on the pad or catching the edge. It is a crappy term used here to justify a crappy selection policy, but this is how I've understood it.

I would think that zip is used to refer to pace off the wicket rather than anything else. However, as you said, i dont think anyone truly knows the definition of the term and its often wrongly used to provide an explanation bowlers that are out of form.