Official Pro-Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, ROH etc.)

[GIMH]

Sounds good. At least this keeps Triple H away from Raw. Although what does this mean for Legacy? Do they get drafted too?

Also have you heard anything about where Christian ends up? Does he end up being drafted to Raw or Smackdown or is he still stuck in the backwaters of ECW?

Not sure about Legacy, though I imagine they'd be drafted as one wouldn't they?

RE Christian, I haven't seen him mentioned for any matches, so not sure

 

[GIMH]

Well, I'm making the most of my day off and continuing the wrestling theme. A mate has a huge library of wrestling DVDs, we watched a variety of stuff from WWE & ROH from 6 til half ten last night, then watched the HOF highlights and made Irish coffees to ensure we were able to stay up but continue the alcoholic nature of the evening. Well anyway, I went all round the world there to tell you I have borrowed a couple of his DVDs and am gonna sit here all night watching them.

I've just stuck in disc 1 of "The History of the WWE Championship". Have never watched a lot of the 70s stuff, should be interesting

 

[cricman]

Rumor has it Orton will win the Belt tonight and HHH just wanted his WM Win. If not tonight than def at Backlash. HHH is pretty selfish SOB.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Apparently three matches have been announced for tonight's RAW - a rematch from the dark match last night for the Unified Tag Titles, a 10-Diva Tag Match, and a WrestleMania All-Star Tag Match, featuring these two teams:

World Heavyweight Champion John Cena, Mr. Money In The Bank CM Punk, Intercontinental Champion Rey Mysterio, Jeff Hardy, and Ricky 'The Dragon' Steamboat

vs

Edge, The Big Show, Kane, Matt Hardy, and Chris Jericho

That match could be awesome, it'll be great to see Steamboat back in the ring again.

Also going by the other rumours about tonight that have already been mentioned, WWE could be going a long way to right some of the wrongs of last night - still doesn't make up for it, but it's a start.

 

[masterblaster]

Match announced for Backlash is a six man tag featuring Rhodes, DiBiase and Orton vs Shane, Vince and Hunter. Ugh

Orton got a really tough deal on this, he deserves to have the belt on him right now leading this feud. Biggest case of Triple H screwing things up I've ever seen.

 

[duffer]

That sounds nasty

is the draft this week? Might give WWE a skip until it happens.

 

[Francis]

Think you're wrong on this. Most people I know who dislike HBK(myself included) are more than willing to give him props for his in-ring ability because he is quite outstanding in pretty much every facet his size allows him to be. Not sure I've read anything on here where people have doubted how well he can go.

The only thing I can think of where people criticize his matches is when he's burying a good talent which links into more of his perceived backstage antics rather than anything else.

Nah it's people actually criticising Shawn for his in-ring abilities, casting aside the fact no wrestler (not even Bret Hart) takes away the fact that he's very talented. You'd be shocked how many people criticise him on some of the boards I mentioned for lacking good offence, for being a mindless bumper, for making so many unrealistic comebacks etc.

As far as I'm concerned, people can have those opinions on Shawn if they like, but it's when they start praising other stuff and ignoring the same supposed "faults" in other wrestlers that I get annoyed. I'm really not a Shawn appologist much, I just don't like inconsistency. But people can have those opinions even if most of Shawn's peers rank him highly and most fans get a kick out of his matches.

But to acknowledge what you said about him...

I think people need to be careful when they claim Shawn is burying guys in his matches. There hasn't been one report from any source, be it The Torch or The Observer, that has reported Shawn being a nuisance since his return in 2002. I remember when he beat Jericho at WM19 (this was before Shawn was back to being a regular performer on RAW) the whole internet was in a rage about how he never put Jericho over and how he's using politics etc. Mind you there wasn't one report saying Shawn refused to lose or did this or that. And in fact Jericho rates that as his all-time favourite match, so those people really wound up having egg on their face.

People claimed Shawn and Hunter were burying the Spirit Squad a few years ago when they reunited as DX. I agree fully that the booking seemed designed to bury the Spirit Squad, yet again there were no reports of Shawn making a nuisance of himself. Not forgetting that Shawn's done jobs a plenty since he's come back. At one time or another he's jobbed to Orton, Batista, Angle, Benoit, Taker, Cena, Hunter etc.

By all means Shawn was a problem, especially from 1995-1997. Not making things easier for himself is the fact that his character, back in 1996, was easy for people to hate because who's going to cheer a pretty boy who wears sparklers?

Anyway he's easily the most divisive wrestler on the IWC. If he's wrestling in highly praised matches, they'll get criticised by some. If he's winning matches, people will start talking about politics.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Match announced for Backlash is a six man tag featuring Rhodes, DiBiase and Orton vs Shane, Vince and Hunter. Ugh

Orton got a really tough deal on this, he deserves to have the belt on him right now leading this feud. Biggest case of Triple H screwing things up I've ever seen.

I missed most of the ending of RAW thanks to my laptop crashing, but from what I gather, Vince has now been replaced in that match by a returning Batista - is that correct? If so, it should make it a lot better, even given how much I hate Batista.

Right now, words cannot express how strongly I hope Orton's team wins that match and wins the belt for Orton. It's the only way they've got left to salvage Legacy's credibility.

 

[duffer]

Nah it's people actually criticising Shawn for his in-ring abilities, casting aside the fact no wrestler (not even Bret Hart) takes away the fact that he's very talented. You'd be shocked how many people criticise him on some of the boards I mentioned for lacking good offence, for being a mindless bumper, for making so many unrealistic comebacks etc.

As far as I'm concerned, people can have those opinions on Shawn if they like, but it's when they start praising other stuff and ignoring the same supposed "faults" in other wrestlers that I get annoyed. I'm really not a Shawn appologist much, I just don't like inconsistency. But people can have those opinions even if most of Shawn's peers rank him highly and most fans get a kick out of his matches.

Not everyone has to prefer his style of wrestling or like his arsenal of moves though. For example there have been periods of time where he went Flair on us and pretty much gave us the same set of 5-7 moves over and over again week after week. People criticizing that is very fair.

I've seen him and Triple H Main Event a Rumble and mail it in; spending two thirds of the match in rest holds. People having a go at that is very fair.

I've seen him botch spots, audible into a live camera, sandbag etc etc and they are all fair criticisms which all other top wrestlers cop as well.

If what you're saying is true and people flat out refuse to acknowledge his talent then I am shocked but what wager they are in the minority even amongst his haters.

But to acknowledge what you said about him...

I think people need to be careful when they claim Shawn is burying guys in his matches. There hasn't been one report from any source, be it The Torch or The Observer, that has reported Shawn being a nuisance since his return in 2002. I remember when he beat Jericho at WM19 (this was before Shawn was back to being a regular performer on RAW) the whole internet was in a rage about how he never put Jericho over and how he's using politics etc. Mind you there wasn't one report saying Shawn refused to lose or did this or that. And in fact Jericho rates that as his all-time favourite match, so those people really wound up having egg on their face.

People claimed Shawn and Hunter were burying the Spirit Squad a few years ago when they reunited as DX. I agree fully that the booking seemed designed to bury the Spirit Squad, yet again there were no reports of Shawn making a nuisance of himself. Not forgetting that Shawn's done jobs a plenty since he's come back. At one time or another he's jobbed to Orton, Batista, Taker, Cena, Hunter etc.

By all means Shawn was a problem, especially from 1995-1997. Not making things easier for himself is the fact that his character, back in 1996, was easy for people to hate because who's going to cheer a pretty boy who wears sparklers?

Anyway he's easily the most divisive wrestler on the IWC. If he's wrestling in highly praised matches, they'll get criticised by some. If he's winning matches, people will start talking about politics.

Not sure if you're waiting for official documentation or whatever saying they are burying people but I'm sure there are plenty of shoots where people have insinuated such tings have occured. A burial can be witnessed by anyone and everyone without needing to know anything that goes on backstage and he buried plenty early in his career. Not sure about the dates but I've already acknowledged that if he's suddenly decided to become a professional then good on him, I just don't want people to feed me the born again Christian stuff (not that anyone on here has).

 

[Francis]

Not everyone has to prefer his style of wrestling or like his arsenal of moves though. For example there have been periods of time where he went Flair on us and pretty much gave us the same set of 5-7 moves over and over again week after week. People criticizing that is very fair.

That's not what I said. I said by all means people can criticise him for his moves. I even said they have all the right in the world to criticise him despite the fact that his peers seem to rate him. What I can't stand is when people start criticising his offence, but then they might start to praise Ultimate Warrior v Randy Savage from WM7, where Warrior's offence is herrendous. They might criticise Shawn's moves and then praise Bret Hart v Roddy Piper from Mania 8, which has some of the most basic offence you'll find anywhere. When people act like that they come off as biased against Shawn because there's a double-standard. I'd prefer it if they said they didn't like Shawn's this because they're not Shawn fans.

I've seen him and Triple H Main Event a Rumble and mail it in; spending two thirds of the match in rest holds. People having a go at that is very fair.

I've seen him botch spots, audible into a live camera, sandbag etc etc and they are all fair criticisms which all other top wrestlers cop as well.

Yeah stuff like that's fine. He should be criticised for stuff like that. If people start assuming that he's deliberately performing poorly in the ring to bury someone, that's when I'll make a rebuttal because that's what's wrong with the Internet Wrestling Community - they make their own truths and look like an ass doing it.

If what you're saying is true and people flat out refuse to acknowledge his talent then I am shocked but what wager they are in the minority even amongst his haters.

They are a minority, although a very passionate and persuasive minority who watch Japanese wrestling and lucha libre etc.

Not sure if you're waiting for official documentation or whatever saying they are burying people but I'm sure there are plenty of shoots where people have insinuated such tings have occured.

I have a problem with that. First off I'm aware of most shoot interviews that come out of RF video, among other places, and there's been no talk about Shawn burying people - no insinuations (at least not about his 2002 to now part of his career, the same can't be said about 1995-1997). The same can't be said about Hunter - Billy Gunn and Road Dogg have indicated towards a few things. Lance Storm recently did some Wrestlemania predictions on his website where he refers to HHH having creative control and thus he expected him to win at Mania.

But what I really have a problem with is that your ASSUMING by saying "I'm sure there are" etc. That's why so many people in the IWC go too far. You shouldn't assume this or that about a wrestler based on nothing, based on "I'm sure there are", because there aren't.

I don't doubt Hunter uses his creative control, but the IWC's gone 100x too far with Triple H hatred. I remember watching Triple H conduct a promo a few years back, reminicent of how Ric Flair used to do promos (when everyone praised him for being the best heel in wrestling). I thought it was a textbook version of how to put an angle over to try and draw money. A few people in the IWC thought he was burying this wrestler and based on an assumptoin they went on a rant about him burying talent.

I don't assume too much about what happens on the camera and backstage because I'm not backstage at a WWE event. There's things I don't know and will never know about wrestling because I'm nothing more than a fan.

A burial can be witnessed by anyone and everyone without needing to know anything that goes on backstage and he buried plenty early in his career. Not sure about the dates but I've already acknowledged that if he's suddenly decided to become a professional then good on him, I just don't want people to feed me the born again Christian stuff (not that anyone on here has).

Yeah I have a problem with that, but I'd be repeating what I said in the paragraph above. I guess I'll just sum it up that I think it's silly for a lot of wrestling fans (and they're just fans like I am) to assume what happens backstage with nothing to go but what happens on camera.

 

[Francis]

I'd like to add that I'm pretty scrupulous when it comes to shoot interviews. While I take in a lot of what's said in shoot interviews, every single wrestler has an ego and what they perceive as the truth can be far from it.

The former wrestler Crush once gave an interview where he said he felt he revolutionised wrestling with high-end move-set.

Scott Hall once gave an interview about how intended to get talent like Chris Jericho over. He explanation on how he did it and how great he was in doing it wasn't very convincing.

I'm certain many wrestlers just give the interviewer what they want - some juicey gossip - and they embellish it. Are you familiar with the term 'checkbook journalism'? That's what a journalist pays his interviewer. It's considered a filthy practice among journalists because the interviewer often tries to justify their sallery by giving the journalist what they want to hear!

It's the same thing with shoots. I'm sure there are times when a wrestler embellishes things in shoots. I'm not referring to anybody or defending any wrestler. I just don't read all that much into shoots because wrestlers use them to promote themself.

 

[duffer]

I have a problem with that. First off I'm aware of most shoot interviews that come out of RF video, among other places, and there's been no talk about Shawn burying people - no insinuations (at least not about his 2002 to now part of his career, the same can't be said about 1995-1997). The same can't be said about Hunter - Billy Gunn and Road Dogg have indicated towards a few things. Lance Storm recently did some Wrestlemania predictions on his website where he refers to HHH having creative control and thus he expected him to win at Mania.

But what I really have a problem with is that your ASSUMING by saying "I'm sure there are" etc. That's why so many people in the IWC go too far. You shouldn't assume this or that about a wrestler based on nothing, based on "I'm sure there are", because there aren't.

Okay, what I meant by "I'm sure there are" is "I know there have been but since I haven't really followed wrestling closely for years will struggle to recall anything off the top of my head." If I could be bothered I could dig up some stuff but I don't really care anymore about it. Your point on the credibility of shoots is interesting but if you are asking for "evidence" that is the best people can give you without resorting to innuendo and as I say below I only take it even remotely seriously when what I hear somewhat matches up with what I'm presented with on TV.

Not assuming anything about the man really, haven't liked what I've seen of him as a person during interviews on and off WWE Television. Don't know him personally but from what I am given I don't like him.

I don't doubt Hunter uses his creative control, but the IWC's gone 100x too far with Triple H hatred. I remember watching Triple H conduct a promo a few years back, reminicent of how Ric Flair used to do promos (when everyone praised him for being the best heel in wrestling). I thought it was a textbook version of how to put an angle over to try and draw money. A few people in the IWC thought he was burying this wrestler and based on an assumptoin they went on a rant about him burying talent.

I don't assume too much about what happens on the camera and backstage because I'm not backstage at a WWE event. There's things I don't know and will never know about wrestling because I'm nothing more than a fan.

You see I don't think it does go too far, he can bury people based purely on the amount of time he hogs on Television every week. I haven't been watching closely recently but I can remember a time when he would have a 15-20 minute promo on RAW every week, plus the Main Event match and other segments backstage. Sorry but even if he isn't directly burying anyone that itself is a statement of him exerting his dominance.

And I'm not sure which promo you are referring to but it is very easy when there is a mismatch in mic talent to bury the other person simply by making it blatantly obvious how big the gap is between them even though he might be following some cliched wrestling guidebook on how to cut a promo. I've seen him annihilate guys on the mic before and then go on and dominate them in the ring later. He does this all the time as well and has earned the criticism which although might only be implicit correlates well with what is seen on TV every week.

 

[masterblaster]

I missed most of the ending of RAW thanks to my laptop crashing, but from what I gather, Vince has now been replaced in that match by a returning Batista - is that correct? If so, it should make it a lot better, even given how much I hate Batista.

Right now, words cannot express how strongly I hope Orton's team wins that match and wins the belt for Orton. It's the only way they've got left to salvage Legacy's credibility.

You're right, Batista has replaced Vince in that match. I wrote that as Raw opened and got incredibly bored of Raw so I turned it off. This really should be Orton and Legacy calling the shots instead of this. Batista adds no value to anything so he could've been introduced by himself.

Might go and check out TNA Impact this week after so many weeks of not bothering to watch it. Apparently Christopher Daniels is returning as The Fallen Angel so that should be worth watching.

 

[Francis]

Okay, what I meant by "I'm sure there are" is "I know there have been but since I haven't really followed wrestling closely for years will struggle to recall anything off the top of my head." If I could be bothered I could dig up some stuff but I don't really care anymore about it. Your point on the credibility of shoots is interesting but if you are asking for "evidence" that is the best people can give you without resorting to innuendo and as I say below I only take it even remotely seriously when what I hear somewhat matches up with what I'm presented with on TV.

I don't know if you're talking about Triple H or Shawn. If you're talking about Shawn, then I doubt you'll find a shoot that discusses him using politics from 2002 onwards. I've known a few that discussed him being a nuisance from the mid 90s. But if you're saying, "I could find talking about him from 2002 onwards one if I tried" then I'll have to call you on that. I doubt you'll find one on Shawn about that.

As far as one involving Hunter, there's been a few like I said. And like I said, I don't doubt he uses his creative control because some talent have indicated that this is to. Although HHH hated has gone too far on the net and becomes dire as most CWers would put it.

You see I don't think it does go too far, he can bury people based purely on the amount of time he hogs on Television every week. I haven't been watching closely recently but I can remember a time when he would have a 15-20 minute promo on RAW every week, plus the Main Event match and other segments backstage. Sorry but even if he isn't directly burying anyone that itself is a statement of him exerting his dominance.

That's plain stupidity. There could be a whole host of reasons why he gets a lot of TV time. For instance, the fact that he's one of the WWE's best guys for merchandise. The fact that he was one of their biggest stars from their hot period from 98-01. The fact that he's an established name. The fact that he's over with the fans. Yes he's over with the fans because the internet is only a small representation of a whole lot of wrestling fans.

Maybe he does get so much TV time because of his creative control. But as the saying goes: when you assume you make an ass out of you and me. I'm not going to assume it's politics everytime he's on TV because there are other reasons that explain why he gets so much TV exposure. In short, it may or it may not be politics. I'm not going to talk about certainties based off a hunch.

Lance Storm is a great source to reference because he interacts with fans on his website and answers Q & A. When someone asked him about HHH and politics he corrected them and said most wrestling fans don't understand politics. It's not about the amount of wins and losses you get, the amount of TV time you get, or this or that. He says whomever is WWE Champion gets extra money in their sallery for carrying the belt. Thus he felt the reason the belt kept on going back to Hunter was more for money reasons.

But people will pick Hunter apart for how he delivers interviews, how he wrestles matches, how much TV time he gets. Lance Storm doesn't think that's the aim of politics in wrestling. It's the money that comes along with the belt.

And golly I've heard so many scenarios where people say Hunter is burying talent on the mic. Really much of what he says on the mic doesn't differ from the stuff Ric Flair or Rick Rude or Ted DiBiase used to say. When he was a heel he gave typical heel promos that looked down on wrestlers.

 

[masterblaster]

Overall Francis, I like Triple H and at one point I was a big fan of his. He's a great wrestler, fantastic entertainer and a great all round performer. But seriously can you dispute that if that was Batista or John Cena facing Randy Orton that Randy Orton still would've lost?

It's stuff that Triple H pulls on PPV's that seriously causes me to question his power and creative control. Having to always close out the show and 'mainevent' is a big gripe I have with Triple H. Clearly yesterday's PPV called for it to end with Shawn and Undertaker, but Hunter had to have that spotlight and had to close the show.

What it proved was that the match was an absolute dud not worthy of the great buildup that they had. The crowd was exhausted and not interested and Hunter going over was an absolute anti climax. The night would've been salvaged had Orton won and this would've done his career a world of good.

Triple H is at a point where he is permanently over. He doesn't need wins and losses anymore. He doesn't need the WWE Championship anymore because he's done all of that. Randy Orton needs it and he needed that Wrestlemania moment because at the 25th anniversary it would've been a great passing of the torch moment.

It's stuff like that and the things that Triple H did with Chris Jericho and Booker T back in 2002 and 2003 that makes people not like him. He's a great all round performer but he needs to realise that him main eventing in every damn PPV since 2000 when it's 2009 is becoming a bit too much.

 

[duffer]

That's plain stupidity. There could be a whole host of reasons why he gets a lot of TV time. For instance, the fact that he's one of the WWE's best guys for merchandise. The fact that he was one of their biggest stars from their hot period from 98-01. The fact that he's an established name. The fact that he's over with the fans. Yes he's over with the fans because the internet is only a small representation of a whole lot of wrestling fans.

Maybe he does get so much TV time because of his creative control. But as the saying goes: when you assume you make an ass out of you and me. I'm not going to assume it's politics everytime he's on TV because there are other reasons that explain why he gets so much TV exposure. In short, it may or it may not be politics. I'm not going to talk about certainties based off a hunch.

Yeah and how exactly did he get so much further over than everyone else? Overness and exposure are very much related and the most basic fact of the industry is that all the wrestlers are competing for TV time every show and having one guy deny so completely dominant is burying them completely because that is what makes them money as individuals.

And to say Vince is putting him there every segment because he adds so much more value is equally and utterly stupid unless there is some empirical proof of him improving shows and buyrates so much more significantly than his rivals would if they were given the same opportunities.

Lance Storm is a great source to reference because he interacts with fans on his website and answers Q & A. When someone asked him about HHH and politics he corrected them and said most wrestling fans don't understand politics. It's not about the amount of wins and losses you get, the amount of TV time you get, or this or that. He says whomever is WWE Champion gets extra money in their sallery for carrying the belt. Thus he felt the reason the belt kept on going back to Hunter was more for money reasons.

But people will pick Hunter apart for how he delivers interviews, how he wrestles matches, how much TV time he gets. Lance Storm doesn't think that's the aim of politics in wrestling. It's the money that comes along with the belt.

And golly I've heard so many scenarios where people say Hunter is burying talent on the mic. Really much of what he says on the mic doesn't differ from the stuff Ric Flair or Rick Rude or Ted DiBiase used to say. When he was a heel he gave typical heel promos that looked down on wrestlers.

Then you are either misunderstanding or misconstruing what he says because the money they earn and draw are heavily influenced by how much TV time, ME spots/wins and the nature of how he is perceived on air ie what people see week in and week out.

And you completely missed my point on how he buries people on the mic. You obviously need to try and understand what a true burial is.

 

[honestbharani]

Man do people take the wins and losses in wrestling too seriously!!!!



Everyone knows it is fake.. You are going to get new people involved just because a guy is winning more. Most casual fans don't give a damn about history because its ****ing wrestling.. You can lose 10 in a row and still come out on top in a championship.. It is just a fight and even without breaking key fabe, it is realistic enough to see some guys win out of nowhere.


And secondly, about being put over... The biggest stars of the WWE in the last 15 years that I have been watching.. They all got over by themselves.. They may have gotten a shot with good gimmicks but these guys were over well before they ever became the top dogs in the company. I am talking about men like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, even Diesel for a little while, men lilke Austin, Rock,Triple H and John Cena and perhaps now Edge and Chris Jericho.. These men got the reactions from the crowd that you look for... They got the fans to cheer for them when they were playing face and they got them to boo them when they were playing heel... Is Randy Orton really more popular than Triple H with the casual fans? I don't think so... I don't see him getting the reactions that you need.


Plus most of the time in wrestling, the faces always go over in the feuds.. That is just how it goes. You gotta make sure the fans are cheering at the end of a show more often than not. Of course, you need to build up the heel enough to always add a bit of suspense as to how can the face overcome him but at the end of the day, the face HAS to overcome him... That is how you get ratings.. Hogan, Austin, Rock.. In their best drawing days, they were all faces.. Coincidence? I think not...


FWIW, I think Randy Orton is NOT good enough to be the top dog of the company.. Heck, he is not even as good as Cena in drawing the crowds. If he was any good, he would have turned face by now and had a run as champion.. He can play a decent heel (of course, needs to be backed by very intense feuds and strong booking, cant carry anything by himself) but let him first prove his drawing powers before they make him the top guy.. Right now he is not at the same level as Hunter or Edge or Cena...


People make too much about the burying stuff.. HBK believed Bret Hart buried him too much... If you read the interviews by both these guys about each other, one gets the feeling both of them were pretty much the same. Both were reasonably close with Vince McMahon and both seemed wary that the other would use that influence and bury him a little bit during the feud. It didn't help that both were the biggest drawing stars in the WWF at that time and with WCW gaining on them, Vince tried all he could to get a big feud between the two and maybe went over the top by arising both men's insecurities and suspicions about the other to such a high level.


I just wish people didn't take the wins/losses and "burying" stuff this seriously.. The only man I think who has legitimately been "buried" recently would be Chris Jericho..

 

[Francis]

Yeah and how exactly did he get so much further over than everyone else?

Hunter was over in 1998 and 1999 long before he had plenty of TV time. In 1999 he became WWE Champion without ever having a win over Austin or Rock prior to that. He got over during that time because he was a believable character and a good heel.

And to say Vince is putting him there every segment because he adds so much more value is equally and utterly stupid unless there is some proof of him improving shows and buyrates so much more significantly than his rivals would if they were given the same opportunities.

I'm just noting the possibilities that exist as to why Hunter gets so much time as opposed to making a judgment based off a hunch.

Then you are either misunderstanding or misconstruing what he says because the money they earn and draw are heavily influenced by how much TV time, ME wins and the nature of how he is perceived on air.

Well Hunter has said it in interviews: "Why would I bury someone if I could make money with them?" And using Lance Storm again, success isn't always about wins and losses. There are wrestlers like Shawn and Taker who can lose five matches and what happens? Nothing. They're still Shawn and Taker and they're still perceived as main event performers. They're "made men" as Lance Storm likes to put it.

And you completely missed my point on how he buries people on the mic. You obviously need to try and understand what a true burial is.

I've been a wrestling fan for nearly 20 years now. I've seen promos that draw money and promos that do a bad job of selling an event.

I think people just make assumptions about everything Triple H does, and while those assumption may even be true, they shouldn't be discussed as being true until there's something to go on - a little bit of evidence. I think it's silly when wrestling fans pretend they know what's going on when they're not backstage. Do they even know what creative meetings are like or how they're conducted?

 

[Francis]

Everyone knows it is fake.. You are going to get new people involved just because a guy is winning more. Most casual fans don't give a damn about history because its ****ing wrestling.. You can lose 10 in a row and still come out on top in a championship.. It is just a fight and even without breaking key fabe, it is realistic enough to see some guys win out of nowhere.


And secondly, about being put over... The biggest stars of the WWE in the last 15 years that I have been watching.. They all got over by themselves.. They may have gotten a shot with good gimmicks but these guys were over well before they ever became the top dogs in the company. I am talking about men like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, even Diesel for a little while, men lilke Austin, Rock,Triple H and John Cena and perhaps now Edge and Chris Jericho.. These men got the reactions from the crowd that you look for... They got the fans to cheer for them when they were playing face and they got them to boo them when they were playing heel... Is Randy Orton really more popular than Triple H with the casual fans? I don't think so... I don't see him getting the reactions that you need.


Plus most of the time in wrestling, the faces always go over in the feuds.. That is just how it goes. You gotta make sure the fans are cheering at the end of a show more often than not. Of course, you need to build up the heel enough to always add a bit of suspense as to how can the face overcome him but at the end of the day, the face HAS to overcome him... That is how you get ratings.. Hogan, Austin, Rock.. In their best drawing days, they were all faces.. Coincidence? I think not...

You got it down I reckon.

 

[masterblaster]

Man do people take the wins and losses in wrestling too seriously!!!!

Everyone knows it is fake.. You are going to get new people involved just because a guy is winning more. Most casual fans don't give a damn about history because its ****ing wrestling.. You can lose 10 in a row and still come out on top in a championship.. It is just a fight and even without breaking key fabe, it is realistic enough to see some guys win out of nowhere.

The results are pre-determined yes, but obviously if you are losing heaps you are not in the top spot and it does make a difference. If winning and losing wasn't important why do you think Triple H and John Cena make the most money are the top draws where someone like MVP, Shelton Benjamin and Christian guys who are just as talented if not more are purely mid card?

And secondly, about being put over... The biggest stars of the WWE in the last 15 years that I have been watching.. They all got over by themselves.. They may have gotten a shot with good gimmicks but these guys were over well before they ever became the top dogs in the company. I am talking about men like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker, even Diesel for a little while, men lilke Austin, Rock,Triple H and John Cena and perhaps now Edge and Chris Jericho.. These men got the reactions from the crowd that you look for... They got the fans to cheer for them when they were playing face and they got them to boo them when they were playing heel... Is Randy Orton really more popular than Triple H with the casual fans? I don't think so... I don't see him getting the reactions that you need.

Is Randy Orton more popular than Triple H? At the moment you bet he is. They invested so much time and energy into getting Orton into this huge anti hero type of heel. The fans love the guy and he is genuinely entertaining every time he goes out there. Triple H is the same that he has always been since 2000.

Plus most of the time in wrestling, the faces always go over in the feuds.. That is just how it goes. You gotta make sure the fans are cheering at the end of a show more often than not. Of course, you need to build up the heel enough to always add a bit of suspense as to how can the face overcome him but at the end of the day, the face HAS to overcome him... That is how you get ratings.. Hogan, Austin, Rock.. In their best drawing days, they were all faces.. Coincidence? I think not...

That's why you could hear a pin drop when Triple H pedigreed Randy Orton for the win last night at Wrestlemania. There were 70,000 people in attendance going nuts for Christian, Shawn and Undertaker but you could hear absolute silence when Triple H won that match.

I don't know when Randy Orton last went over Triple H. They've been feuding since the Evolution break up and not once has Orton looked like coming out on top. The good guy doesn't always win the battle in the end and shouldn't have at Wrestlemania because their feud is still continuing! This match should've been Randy Orton's to give even more spice to the feud and then Triple H could've won back the belt and saved the day for the McMahon family at the next PPV. But a Wrestlemania victory for Randy would've made him an absolutely huge star.

FWIW, I think Randy Orton is NOT good enough to be the top dog of the company.. Heck, he is not even as good as Cena in drawing the crowds. If he was any good, he would have turned face by now and had a run as champion.. He can play a decent heel (of course, needs to be backed by very intense feuds and strong booking, cant carry anything by himself) but let him first prove his drawing powers before they make him the top guy.. Right now he is not at the same level as Hunter or Edge or Cena...

I think you are wrong here. Randy has completely reinvented himself as a character and deserved the win yesterday. He's exceptionally talented in the ring and from his mannerisms and presence he plays one of the most convincing heels. Watching Raw today, people were cheering him on like anything against Vince McMahon. The fans are definitely behind Randy at the moment much like they were behind Stone Cold when he made that transition from heel to face in 1997.

I just wish people didn't take the wins/losses and "burying" stuff this seriously.. The only man I think who has legitimately been "buried" recently would be Chris Jericho..

It does make a difference because audience perception often translates into positions and money for these guys. Why should one guy who's married into the family have the best career and other guys who are working just as hard and are more talented not get that opportunity to shine as well? One main event guy against 10 or 15 main event guys, I know I'd rather have 10 guys in the mainevent making my television and my PPVs look really strong.

As for Chris Jericho he's a better wrestler, entertainer and character than Triple H will ever be. He was buried in 2002 but since coming back he's been better than ever and I'm sure with his experience and wisdom won't get buried like he did back then.