Official Pro-Wrestling Thread (WWE, TNA, ROH etc.)

[Francis]

Hunter was over in 1998 and 1999 long before he had plenty of TV time. In 1999 he became WWE Champion without ever having a win over Austin or Rock prior to that. He got over during that time because he was a believable character and a good heel.

Sorry I should note he had a win over Rock at Summerslam 1998. Not that it meant anything in terms of his assention into the main event because Rock became a main eventer just before he did, and whatever happened over the IC title was pretty irrelevant.

HonestB is right when he says wins and losses shouldn't be taken too seriously...

 

[duffer]

Hunter was over in 1998 and 1999 long before he had plenty of TV time. In 1999 he became WWE Champion without ever having a win over Austin or Rock prior to that. He got over during that time because he was a believable character and a good heel.

You didn't answer my question on how he got so much more over than everyone else to demand so much more air time.

I'm just noting the possibilities that exist as to why Hunter gets so much time as opposed to making a judgment based off a hunch.

And disregarding another plausible possibility in the process.

Well Hunter has said it in interviews: "Why would I bury someone if I could make money with them?" And using Lance Storm again, success isn't always about wins and losses. There are wrestlers like Shawn and Taker who can lose five matches and what happens? Nothing. They're still Shawn and Taker and they're still perceived as main event performers. They're "made men" as Lance Storm likes to put it.

Depends, how do you know their only motivation is money, especially as they are all made for life. There are many reasons to hold someone down and to think you know exactly why anyone is doing anything is as much speculation as people bitching about what goes on backstage.

I've been a wrestling fan for nearly 20 years now. I've seen promos that draw money and promos that do a bad job of selling an event.

Need to look at the context of what is being said, to who and how. Not good enough repeating the same thing over and over just because it drew money in the past especially if it makes an opponent look like he doesn't belong there at all, which is what I've seen plenty of times. Defeats the whole purpose of the program they're in.

I think people just make assumptions about everything Triple H does, and while those assumption may even be true, they shouldn't be discussed as being true until there's something to go on - a little bit of evidence. I think it's silly when wrestling fans pretend they know what's going on when they're not backstage. Do they even know what creative meetings are like or how they're conducted?

Then why are we discussing what Vince's motivations are and why people are being pushed at all? Should we all just watch and cheer blindly when Batista comes down and spears everything in sight like they tell us to? Speculation is what drives so much discussion and if people have a theory which they believe is backed up by what they see they will run with it.

 

[Francis]

The results are pre-determined yes, but obviously if you are losing heaps you are not in the top spot and it does make a difference. If winning and losing wasn't important why do you think Triple H and John Cena make the most money are the top draws where someone like MVP, Shelton Benjamin and Christian guys who are just as talented if not more are purely mid card?

Simply because MVP and Shelton aren't placed in the main event. Wins and losses really aren't that important.

Is Randy Orton more popular than Triple H? At the moment you bet he is. They invested so much time and energy into getting Orton into this huge anti hero type of heel. The fans love the guy and he is genuinely entertaining every time he goes out there. Triple H is the same that he has always been since 2000.

You could debate over who's more important than Orton or HHH, but I wouldn't try since I don't know who drives the ratings, who helps with merchandise etc. Only people in the WWE know who's more important. People are entitled to their own opinion on who's more important (I think Orton is), but one man's opinion doesn't make that so.

I thought the ending at Mania was wrong because of how they'd invested in Orton for months prior.

 

[duffer]

You can lose 10 in a row and still come out on top in a championship.. It is just a fight and even without breaking key fabe, it is realistic enough to see some guys win out of nowhere.

And in this scenario the champion won't stay over so it'll never happen.

They got the fans to cheer for them when they were playing face and they got them to boo them when they were playing heel... Is Randy Orton really more popular than Triple H with the casual fans? I don't think so... I don't see him getting the reactions that you need.

Has he been given the same opportunities?

Plus most of the time in wrestling, the faces always go over in the feuds.. That is just how it goes. You gotta make sure the fans are cheering at the end of a show more often than not. Of course, you need to build up the heel enough to always add a bit of suspense as to how can the face overcome him but at the end of the day, the face HAS to overcome him... That is how you get ratings.. Hogan, Austin, Rock.. In their best drawing days, they were all faces.. Coincidence? I think not...

Tired, old and cliched.

FWIW, I think Randy Orton is NOT good enough to be the top dog of the company.. Heck, he is not even as good as Cena in drawing the crowds. If he was any good, he would have turned face by now and had a run as champion.. He can play a decent heel (of course, needs to be backed by very intense feuds and strong booking, cant carry anything by himself) but let him first prove his drawing powers before they make him the top guy.. Right now he is not at the same level as Hunter or Edge or Cena...

I've never rated Orton and have said he only got pushed because of his looks but he hasn't been pushed properly for people to assume he can't be big one day. he has enough raw talent to make something of himself.

I just wish people didn't take the wins/losses and "burying" stuff this seriously.. The only man I think who has legitimately been "buried" recently would be Chris Jericho..

No one does take wins and losses seriously. It's the manner in which a person wins/loses which matters.

 

[Francis]

You didn't answer my question on how he got so much more over than everyone else to demand so much more air time.

It's kind of an obtuse question to be honest with you, so I'll try and answer it...

If you ask me, Hunter really got over in 1998 when he took over DX. He continued to get over to the point that I'd rate him the WWE's most valuable wrestler in 2000. He got over because he was a great character back then (I find him a little stale now) who knew how to get heat as a heel.

Hence I think that "possibly" has a bearing on how much TV time he gets. Honestly, he doesn't get any more TV time these days than he did in 2000. I remember prior to Summerslam 2000 he did a storyline with Kurt Angle where Kurt was in love with Stephenie - the amount of time he got for RAW and Smackdown in that era a lot.

I don't know exactly what you're arguing. Are you arguing there's more "over" talent that deserves more time? Maybe there is. Like I said, I'm not backstage and I don't know what the quarterly ratings are like and who does the best business for the WWE.

And disregarding another plausible possibility in the process.

Then why did I say I think there's a possibility he uses his creative control? What I said was that I'm not going to say anything certain without a margin of proof. Although I conceed, based on what Lance Storm says, I think whatever politics Triple H plays would be based towards retaining the title and getting more money.

I don't mean to use Lance Storm so much, but to me he's more credible than any other source. If you read something in the dirt sheets they might be true, but it's hearsay and it's one of those things where "a friend of a wrestler has been saying" etc. Shoot interviews have bias and ego attached to them. Lance Storm seems like a nice down-to-earth guy who takes time to answer wrestling fans questions and give really enlightening answers.

Basically I'd rather trust what he says than go off a hunch.

Depends, how do you know their only motivation is money, especially as they are all made for life. There are many reasons to hold someone down and to think you know exactly why anyone is doing anything is as much speculation as people bitching about what goes on backstage.

But I'm not pretending to know what's going on. That came from Lance Storm, who said the champion gets the most money and hence many wrestlers try to wrestle for that top spot. I'd rather trust someone in the know than any information that comes from a third party source.

I don't make assumptions about what happens backstage, I try and remain a fan.

 

[Francis]

And in this scenario the champion won't stay over so it'll never happen.

Fans have already forgotten about MVP's losing streak storyline and he's still over with the fans. I forget how many losses he had, but it was a lot.

Has he been given the same opportunities?

Wrestling history is filled with guys who were terrific characters and performers who never had the same oppotunities that Hogan, Austin, Rock etc had. It doesn't mean those guys are politicking, it just means that those are the guys the company has invested time in.

Are the companies always right about the guys they invest in? Nope.

I think it's a possibility, just as it's a possibility that Hunter abuses a lot of creative control, that the WWE has the most faith in Hunter to carry the company. Maybe they're wrong. I think they're wrong. The IWC thinks they wrong (although the IWC is a minority). But that doesn't raise politics as a certainty.

 

[duffer]

It's kind of an obtuse question to be honest with you, so I'll try and answer it...

If you ask me, Hunter really got over in 1998 when he took over DX. He continued to get over to the point that I'd rate him the WWE's most valuable wrestler in 2000. He got over because he was a great character back then (I find him a little stale now) who knew how to get heat as a heel.

Hence I think that "possibly" has a bearing on how much TV time he gets. Honestly, he doesn't get any more TV time these days than he did in 2000. I remember prior to Summerslam 2000 he did a storyline with Kurt Angle where Kurt was in love with Stephenie - the amount of time he got for RAW and Smackdown in that era a lot.

I don't know exactly what you're arguing. Are you arguing there's more "over" talent that deserves more time? Maybe there is. Like I said, I'm not backstage and I don't know what the quarterly ratings are like and who does the best business for the WWE.

I'm arguing that he does indeed dominate the scene more than he needs to and thus has denied the opportunities for people to reach his level. This isn't based on innuendo or anything like that, just that his and others dominance on the scene means that we may never know how good some of the other guys could've been and allowed the whole scene to go veyr stale for me which is why I don't watch much these days.

I basically believe he's denying opportunities and if he was a true professional/company man he would do a better job of building other stars up rather than what we see from him time and time again. I can see the disconnect between you and me at this point whereas I choose to believe he's being a politician(based on a lot of stuff I read/see) you believe that Vince/others would have a multitude of reasons for keeping him at the top all the time(which I guess is fair enough too) while we both acknowledge that it probably is a combination ofboth.

I don't mean to use Lance Storm so much, but to me he's more credible than any other source. If you read something in the dirt sheets they might be true, but it's hearsay and it's one of those things where "a friend of a wrestler has been saying" etc. Shoot interviews have bias and ego attached to them. Lance Storm seems like a nice down-to-earth guy who takes time to answer wrestling fans questions and give really enlightening answers.

Basically I'd rather trust what he says than go off a hunch.

This is key, I just don't see how people can disregard what a lot of people say in shoots, TSN's or whatever but yet hold someone else's blog/articles/interviews in so much higher esteem. All equally dubious/credible for me although I do like Storm as well.

But I'm not pretending to know what's going on. That came from Lance Storm, who said the champion gets the most money and hence many wrestlers try to wrestle for that top spot. I'd rather trust someone in the know than any information that comes from a third party source.

I don't make assumptions about what happens backstage, I try and remain a fan.

This is fair enough and I don't necessarily disagree apart from I think all current and former wrestling people are equally full of it.

 

[Francis]

Yeah I think we reached that agree to disagree stage, which is a nice place to be.

 

[duffer]

Aye, it's been a good one though. Helped me get through a slow day at work

 

[honestbharani]

The results are pre-determined yes, but obviously if you are losing heaps you are not in the top spot and it does make a difference. If winning and losing wasn't important why do you think Triple H and John Cena make the most money are the top draws where someone like MVP, Shelton Benjamin and Christian guys who are just as talented if not more are purely mid card?

You are missing my point here... If you are over with the crowd, they will put you in big feuds and a number of wins. My point is that even at midcard level, you gotta show you have it in you to draw the people to reacting to you... Shelton is awful on the mic, he cant work the crowd... In the WWE, being a good wrestler is juz half the job, you gotta be good on the mic and you got to be able to get reactions by just even walking out. That is what seperates the REAL stars from the also rans... H and Cena have that, the others don't... You can give them gimmicks and wins but at the end of the day, I don't think the 3 have done as much as a HBK or a Bret Hart or a Rock or Austin or Triple H did at the midcard level to get up to the next level. Christian has just come back, so we will have to wait and see how it plays out.. The WWE guys look for a bit of longevity in the company as well before pushing men to main event level (learning their lessons from what happened with Scott Steiner and Goldberg back in the day).. MVP is still young, Bret and Shawn and others busted many more years before they got anywhere near the top of the card. People expect too much success for the wrestlers they like too soon these days... So maybe MVP will, in time, get to that level. At this point, he is getting good reactions and is pretty good on the mic.. Seems to have the tools but we have to see how he goes from now on...

Wins/Losses once you start getting over with the crowd. Austin and H were getting beaten all the time but somehow started getting reactions with their gimmick and slowly went on to string a few wins together... And I still think, you can still win big matches after losing a number of other matches and it won't look bad on TV... It is all upto how much reactions you are getting and how much the WWE think it will appeal to the viewers to see these men at the top. Jeff Hardy, for all his work and his opportunities, is still not a legit main eventer, is he? His mic work is shoddy at best and his wrestling, while getting reactions, is risky for both himself and his opponent.. The guys at WWE look at all this before deciding if someone goes up to main event level or not.

Is Randy Orton more popular than Triple H? At the moment you bet he is. They invested so much time and energy into getting Orton into this huge anti hero type of heel. The fans love the guy and he is genuinely entertaining every time he goes out there. Triple H is the same that he has always been since 2000.

Maybe.. I think he is doing great in this role as a face... Look, storyline wise Orton is the evil guy stalking and taking out his whole family and H is the knight in shining armour coming to the rescue.. It just doesn't make sense for Orton to go over in this feud... If it somehow leads to a double switch somewhere down the line, then yes, it makes sense. But look, a casual guy watching wrestling for the fun of it (and that is where the majority of the money comes from for the WWE) will not want to watch it if he sees Orton continue being the champion.. Heels generally have a lesser reign as champs than faces (excepting Triple H, but I will come to that later in the post)... Majority still prefer to see the good guy go over the bad guy, be it in movies or wrestling and while what "type" the good guy is can vary, he still cannot be the man who hits others' wives after handcuffing their husbands and do 3 on 1 beatdowns... The way the feud was built up, things were always gonna even out once Shane and Vince came back to the mix. It won't make sense from the fans' PoV to still see Orton go over. He may go over in Backalsh and maybe lose again in Summerslam, unless they change the roles or something..

That's why you could hear a pin drop when Triple H pedigreed Randy Orton for the win last night at Wrestlemania. There were 70,000 people in attendance going nuts for Christian, Shawn and Undertaker but you could hear absolute silence when Triple H won that match.

I haven't watched WM yet but on all the RAWs I see before WM, H was getting a much better reaction than Orton.. And I don't see how Orton has come on much at all.. He is playing a better heel than earlier but to be a real star in the WWE, you gotta be able to play a good face.. The only exception to that rule has again been Triple H, which I will cover at the end of this post... But I don't see fans cheering for Orton and the stupidity of this whole feud for me, is that, they have pretty much cut out most options for turning Orton face.. Unless we see something really twisted come out of this, like the Legacy turning on Orton or Triple H turning on Steph saying he used Orton to crush her or something... But all of this would make less sense than going down the normal road with this feud.

I don't know when Randy Orton last went over Triple H. They've been feuding since the Evolution break up and not once has Orton looked like coming out on top. The good guy doesn't always win the battle in the end and shouldn't have at Wrestlemania because their feud is still continuing! This match should've been Randy Orton's to give even more spice to the feud and then Triple H could've won back the belt and saved the day for the McMahon family at the next PPV. But a Wrestlemania victory for Randy would've made him an absolutely huge star.

Again, you are overestimating what makes a star.. Stars are not made because of wrestlemania.. They are already stars and then they come to WM and win and become even bigger stars.. That is all. If you are not already over much, a win at WM is not exactly going to make you over anymore. WM is the biggest night and the fans just want to see all their favourite guys win or do well. It is a PPV where most of the faces win their matches.. It is their biggest night and they always look to have the fans happy at the end of it and feel good. The men who think Orton is doing well now, I bet, are people who are from the IWC. And as Francis pointed out, the IWC is a very small percentage of wrestling fans that actually buy and watch shows... I speak to a number of guys who watch wrestling casually here in India and most don't even know who Orton is. And they are not much impressed by his mic work either. He is not entertaining and in trying to be the intense Triple H type guy, he has looked even worse... I keep saying this.. There is no USP for him... Even Triple H was entertaining in his DX days... He says the same stuff, he has the same looks.. How many times have we seen him laugh and enjoy something like a normal person does? He is overdoing the intensity stuff and that is what is costing him.


Most casual fans don't care about him and perhaps they never will. It is not a coincidence that he needs such strong and intense angles to get over... If you want to see how to play a psychotic heel without looking like a robot, all you have to do is to watch Chris Jericho...

I think you are wrong here. Randy has completely reinvented himself as a character and deserved the win yesterday. He's exceptionally talented in the ring and from his mannerisms and presence he plays one of the most convincing heels. Watching Raw today, people were cheering him on like anything against Vince McMahon. The fans are definitely behind Randy at the moment much like they were behind Stone Cold when he made that transition from heel to face in 1997.

...


I have not seen it yet and if that is the crowd reaction then I am sure a face turn and a run as champ won't be too far away. Personally, I don't think he can pull off any decent gimmick apart from the one he is currently doing and even for that, he has needed a HEAVY script to carry him through...

It does make a difference because audience perception often translates into positions and money for these guys. Why should one guy who's married into the family have the best career and other guys who are working just as hard and are more talented not get that opportunity to shine as well? One main event guy against 10 or 15 main event guys, I know I'd rather have 10 guys in the mainevent making my television and my PPVs look really strong.

As for Chris Jericho he's a better wrestler, entertainer and character than Triple H will ever be. He was buried in 2002 but since coming back he's been better than ever and I'm sure with his experience and wisdom won't get buried like he did back then.

I said I will come to Triple H at the end.. For me, he was good in the DX days and he was good when he came back as the reinvented intense guy circa 2000... But since about 2002, I do think he has been unreasonably hogging the limelight... Maybe he takes himself and this whole champion, wins/loss thing too seriously.. I always got this feeling that a number of guys do this... Bret Hart is one.. From his interviews, he always struck me as a guy who took this too seriously.. Trips is another.. Maybe Hogan.. Maybe HBK in his earlier run.... Cannot believe they are so uptight about this.


I think Triple H is still one of the best in the WWE though and I have no qualms about him being champion. I think he can pull off a much better face than Orton and can do just as well as Orton, if not better, as a heel. I have no probs about him being at the top. But yeah, he has been around long enough now, I do think other men need to get into the championship feuds.. He can do what HBK and Taker are doing these days and get into big feuds without any titles being involved.


And absolutely agree about Jericho. He was buried and buried hard by HHH. The reasons are probably still unknown but he was defiinitely buried.

 

[honestbharani]

And in this scenario the champion won't stay over so it'll never happen.

lol.. why not?

Has he been given the same opportunities?

Has he been getting the same reactions?

Tired, old and cliched.

Doesn't mean it is not true.

I've never rated Orton and have said he only got pushed because of his looks but he hasn't been pushed properly for people to assume he can't be big one day. he has enough raw talent to make something of himself.

Maybe.. I juz dont see him play a decent face at any time.. He is going the Triple H is going.. The only way he can be a face is by building up a bigger heel than himself... Trips can afford that because he has creative control and he is n the family and he can book himself the way he wants.. Not so sure about Randy. Although it seems, and this is just based on rumours, that he has impressed the McMahons and Stephanie esp. is quite fond of him and his work.. Who knows, he could actually end up being the next Triple H...

No one does take wins and losses seriously. It's the manner in which a person wins/loses which matters.

Even that need not matter... Most matches, esp. in PPVs swing enough back and forth and they always seem to take it down to a point from where it won't be a surprise if either guy wins... I agree about Triple H though.. He seems to take himself and his place with the belt and wins/losses too seriously and it is to the detriment of the WWE itself. But what I do not agree with is how you guys are suggesting they should build up stars.


But for all we know, Trips might as well job to Orton sometime in the next few months and Orton cud have a few months as champ and a feud with Batista culminating maybe around Survivor Series with Batista being the man that finally gets the revenge on Orton...

 

[honestbharani]

BTW, amidst all this talk about how Triple H buries his opponents and hogs the limelight and all this win/loss talk...


This is apparently Triple H's first win in WrestleMania since 2003..

 

[SirBloody Idiot]

Where he should have lost.

To be fair, 2002-03 was the time where one could legitimately criticise the fact HHH was at the top of the card for so long. Not so sure about now.

 

[honestbharani]

Where he should have lost.

To be fair, 2002-03 was the time where one could legitimately criticise the fact HHH was at the top of the card for so long. Not so sure about now.

yep.. since the brand extension and two world titles, even if he is on the main event scene, it is not like he is the only main star that is around...

 

[Majin]

Gonna throw out my thoughts on WM as well.

The event was almost ruined from the start for me when that asshole held up a Wolves flag about 30 seconds into the broadcast I could only have been more disgusted if they held the event in the Molyneux.

MITB was a fun match, about how I expected it to go really apart from Punk winning which I did not see coming but didn't mind either. Everyone's thoughts that two big men in the match was pointless turned out to be true, but I thought Mark Henry actually added more to the match than Kane. Kane seemed like he was hardly there. Kofi was a total badman. I felt bad for Shelton though, as he was coming out to the ring I thought in my head that I couldn't remember any wrestler who has botched so many spots on big shows as Shelton...and then yeah haha the powerbomb. But didn't care 'cause that Swanton was ****ing insane.

Diva battle Royal was pointless, like someone else said couldn't see Sunny, couldn't see Molly Holly or anyone that we actually cared about. Santino was pretty hilarious though.

Was always highly skeptical of the Jericho match but have to admit that when Ricky Steamboats music hit and he came out I had the biggest smile on my face of the night. And when he started going for it with Jericho I was marking out like a complete bitch, was the most awesome thing ever. He may as well have retired yesterday ffs, such a gun. Anyway it all played out as you would have expected and it was as good as it could have been so a success imho.

Hardy vs Hardy wasn't as good as I hoped it would be, but it was still entertaining enough and really happy that Matt came out victorious. The finish was epic.

Mysterio and JBL, well, when Rey came out in his sick joker costume I went upstairs for a quick smoke and when I came back down literally 3 minutes later JBL was in the ring with a mic quitting so I have no idea what happened but I'm guessing it was ****.

HBK/Taker, nuff has been said about it already really, insane match. Though I thought 'Taker was dead when he went for that rope dive and landed on his head, had to turn away from the TV for the replays, was totally horrific. But yeah, was an all time classic.

World Heavyweight match was pretty pap, I actually didn't think Big Show did that bad of a job. But still would have been better off as Edge/Cena. Cena was obviously going to win, didn't really care.

At that point I'd had enough, got around to watching Orton/HHH today and was pretty disappointed with it. Insanely dull match, wrong winner, and the finish was crap. Glad I didn't bother staying up to watch it on Sunday.

Not the best Wrestlemania I've ever seen but I felt like I got my moneys worth so I'm happy overall.

 

[GIMH]

My ****ing sky+ box ****ed up and 'FAILED' to tape Raw, pretty angry, been looking forwards to it. Will try and catch it on Thurs, after reading the results sounds like a good one.

Sounds like the same will happen as at KOTR 2000, ie Triple H will lose the title in a six-man without being pinned

 

[Barney Rubble]

Sounds like the same will happen as at KOTR 2000, ie Triple H will lose the title in a six-man without being pinned

Here's a poser for people, one which I don't know the answer to - when was the last time Triple H lost a title by being cleanly pinned?

I believe it might be as far back as WrestleMania 21, but I'm not sure. He lost his belt to Jeff Hardy at Armageddon when Edge was pinned, he lost his title to Orton in a LMS match, he lost to Cena cleanly at WM22 but Cena already had the belt.

 

[masterblaster]

Here's a poser for people, one which I don't know the answer to - when was the last time Triple H lost a title by being cleanly pinned?

I believe it might be as far back as WrestleMania 21, but I'm not sure. He lost his belt to Jeff Hardy at Armageddon when Edge was pinned, he lost his title to Orton in a LMS match, he lost to Cena cleanly at WM22 but Cena already had the belt.

Interesting question and you are right. The last time he put someone over for the title cleanly was against Batista at Wrestlemania 21. That's only because Batista is such a good friend of Triple H's.

This really highlights it for me. Triple H doesn't lose the belt unless it's some crazy stipulation that doesn't make him look bad. It's just selfish really. Even here, Randy Orton may win the six man tag but it'll be Shane McMahon taking the pinfall.

 

[honestbharani]

I see a big swerve coming up at Backlash though... Could be Triple H turning on Batista or Batista turning on Triple H but I definitely see one coming. Maybe even one of the McMahons turning on the others..

 

[Barney Rubble]

I see a big swerve coming up at Backlash though... Could be Triple H turning on Batista or Batista turning on Triple H but I definitely see one coming. Maybe even one of the McMahons turning on the others..

Everyone said this going into 'Mania though, but nothing happened. I'm gearing up to be disappointed.