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*Official* New Zealand tour of India 2024

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
No it's not. India is getting bowled out 60 and 150. Pitch is like the one from cape town test earlier this year and Bumrah and his mates have conceded 350.

A bag of wickets doesn't automatically mean great performance if your performance relative to opposition and match situation is way off.
If Bumrah takes 10/120 he's averaged 12 runs a wicket. If India are bowled out for 150 and 60 they've averaged 10.5 runs a wicket, which isn't that much less. If Bumrah's team-mates had been able to match his own performance (rather than averaging infinity) the match would've been a lot closer.
 
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RossTaylorsBox

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
No it's not. India is getting bowled out 60 and 150. Pitch is like the one from cape town test earlier this year and Bumrah and his mates have conceded 350.

A bag of wickets doesn't automatically mean great performance if your performance relative to opposition and match situation is way off.
Wrong, sorry.
 

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
If Bumrah takes 10/120 he's averaged 12 runs a wicket. If India are bowled out for 150 and 60 they've averaged 10.5 runs a wicket, which isn't that much less. If Bunrah's team-mates had been able to match his own performance (rather than averaging infinity) the match would've been a lot closer.
Thats fair.

But picking up wickets is a bit of a random thing. It happens every now & then that you may bowl the best spell and not really get the rewards to show for it and instead it may be your teammates getting those wickets. Sometimes it is the other way around. So individual bowling numbers in a single game without context don't necessarily mean everything.

For eg, Kuldeep Yadav was the best Indian spinner vs England this year but numbers won't support him like that. He created a lot of pressure and his teammates got the bulk of the wickets.

Therefore when looking at bowling performances you have to contextualise it and for example see how much the opposition got. If Bumrah and co allow opposition to get double or triple what India get on the same greentop and India loses heavily then that's not exactly world class performance. Him taking 48 long overs to bowl out opposition means Australia batting much more than 100 overs, which is not top class performance on that pitch.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Thats fair.

But picking up wickets is a bit of a random thing. It happens every now & then that you may bowl the best spell and not really get the rewards to show for it and instead it may be your teammates getting those wickets. Sometimes it is the other way around. So individual bowling numbers in a single game without context don't necessarily mean everything.

For eg, Kuldeep Yadav was the best Indian spinner vs England this year but numbers won't support him like that. He created a lot of pressure and his teammates got the bulk of the wickets.

Therefore when looking at bowling performances you have to contextualise it and for example see how much the opposition got. If Bumrah and co allow opposition to get double or triple what India get on the same greentop and India loses heavily then that's not exactly world class performance. Him taking 48 long overs to bowl out opposition means Australia batting much more than 100 overs, which is not top class performance on that pitch.
With every bit of contextualisation, I think picking all 10 wickets when your fellow bowlers are getting thrashed and have 0 to show between themselves; is a World Class performance.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Thats fair.
But picking up wickets is a bit of a random thing. It happens every now & then that you may bowl the best spell and not really get the rewards to show for it and instead it may be your teammates getting those wickets. Sometimes it is the other way around. So individual bowling numbers in a single game without context don't necessarily mean everything.
For eg, Kuldeep Yadav was the best Indian spinner vs England this year but numbers won't support him like that. He created a lot of pressure and his teammates got the bulk of the wickets.
Therefore when looking at bowling performances you have to contextualise it and for example see how much the opposition got. If Bumrah and co allow opposition to get double or triple what India get on the same greentop and India loses heavily then that's not exactly world class performance. Him taking 48 long overs to bowl out opposition means Australia batting much more than 100 overs, which is not good enough on that pitch.
Your explanation doesn't back up your premise. The very example of Ajaz's 10/119 doesn't fit your idea. If we look at that match, Somerville and Rachin combined for 0/100 and conceded two runs an over more. Ajaz had to work against that. Your Yadav analogy, which is your subjective impression of play, doesn't even hold in this case. You're also discounting that batting varies (or do you seriously think if India could've bowled at themselves they'd've been bowled out for 62?). Ultimately a bowling attack has to perform collectively in some manner.

You seem to be working very hard to try prove a poor point due to a barb that wasn't even aimed at you. I don't get it.
 

GirthQuake

U19 12th Man
Supporting your country or team is fine. Except when it gets to jingoism. I'm guessing that is the reason. When fans have to explain away a great performance against their team because it somehow offends them.
Not watched Ajaz enough to know how good he is but it's also true that India have been woeful against spin especially when Kohli, Pujara and Rahane constituted the batting core post 2020. Cricinfo had a lot of stats then on their collective awfulness.

Presently, Kohli is as bad as ever but there's also Gill who does a fine Rahane impersonation when it comes to playing spin.
 

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
Who are Indian batters good vs Spin?

It's Rohit, Pant, and Jadeja.
None of them were playing that Test somehow. Two of them being lefties too.

Overall Indian batting was still better vs spin but not massively better.
 

PaulLennon

U19 Vice-Captain
Well yes


Oh please. Indians bad players of spin now. Conveniently just for that match. You basically had the same batting line up the whole series - even when Ajaz struggled in the first 2 matches. If anything the last test was India's best side of the series.
It was a 2 match series lol.

And the Ind team was weaker then with no Pant, Bumrah, Shami, Rohit.
 

the big bambino

Cricketer Of The Year
Not watched Ajaz enough to know how good he is but it's also true that India have been woeful against spin especially when Kohli, Pujara and Rahane constituted the batting core post 2020. Cricinfo had a lot of stats then on their collective awfulness.

Presently, Kohli is as bad as ever but there's also Gill who does a fine Rahane impersonation when it comes to playing spin.
I’ll take your word for it. You’ve seen them more often in more conditions. Whenever I’ve seen Kohli, Rahane and Pujara v Aus they’ve been impressive. Ajaz took his wickets against India’s best available team that was probably ranked No.1 at the time. Considering all circumstances and contexts it was a great effort.
 

PaulLennon

U19 Vice-Captain
I think this is the strongest Indian team at home ever.

2021-2023 the batting was weak but kept getting bailed out by the bowling and Rohit/lower order batting.

2016-19 great batting and good bowling (especially spinners) but no Bumrah/Pant.

First time India will have the spin trio + Bumrah + Pant + decent batting
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
I’ll take your word for it. You’ve seen them more often in more conditions. Whenever I’ve seen Kohli, Rahane and Pujara v Aus they’ve been impressive. Ajaz took his wickets against India’s best available team that was probably ranked No.1 at the time. Considering all circumstances and contexts it was a great effort.
Don't. Pujara was a genuinely great player of spin and Kohli is far from poor, though has habit of getting out badly. Only Rahane among them was better in swinging away conditions.
 

PaulLennon

U19 Vice-Captain
I’ll take your word for it. You’ve seen them more often in more conditions. Whenever I’ve seen Kohli, Rahane and Pujara v Aus they’ve been impressive. Ajaz took his wickets against India’s best available team that was probably ranked No.1 at the time. Considering all circumstances and contexts it was a great effort.
That trio was great until covid.

2021 Aus series still had some contributions.

2021 Eng series was like the last hurrah for them where they all made some middling contributions here and there.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
I think this is the strongest Indian team at home ever.

2021-2023 the batting was weak but kept getting bailed out by the bowling.

2016-19 great batting and good bowling (especially spinners) but no Bumrah/Pant.

First time India will have the spin trio + Bumrah + Pant + decent batting
Re Pant, it's genuinely the batting though that's the X factor. Saha was a Great glovesman, and while I think Pant's scoring rate is a plus, the batting was better back then. Legitimately Bumrah is the main difference, but he has also been playing since 2018 (though away).
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Don't. Pujara was a genuinely great player of spin and Kohli is far from poor, though has habit of getting out badly. Only Rahane among them was better in swinging away conditions.
Yeah, the contention confuses me. They don't dominate like the early 2000s side (who arguably played on flatter pitches too) but they're not terrible. And like, everyone else is worse.
 

PaulLennon

U19 Vice-Captain
Re Pant, it's genuinely the batting though that's the X factor. Saha was a Great glovesman, and while I think Pant's scoring rate is a plus, the batting was better back then. Legitimately Bumrah is the main difference, but he has also been playing since 2018 (though away).
2016-19 had Kohli, Rahane, Pujara doing bulk of scoring with KLR, Dhawan, Vijay scoring a bit as well. They would score lots of 100s between them.

2021-23 though would either have a Rohit century or Pant/Jadeja/Ashwin/Axar rescuing India from 150-5.

This 2024 Eng series was the first series since the 2019 SA series where the top order started doing the bulk of the scoring. And we still have Jadeja/Ashwin augmented with Bumrah/Kuldeep.

Really excited for this series just to see what this lineup can do.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
2016-19 had Kohli, Rahane, Pujara doing bulk of scoring with KLR, Dhawan, Vijay scoring a bit as well. They would score lots of 100s between them.

2021-23 though would either have a Rohit century or Pant/Jadeja/Ashwin/Axar rescuing India from 150-5.

This 2024 Eng series was the first series since the 2019 SA series where the top order started doing the bulk of the scoring. And we still have Jadeja/Ashwin augmented with Bumrah/Kuldeep.

Really excited for this series just to see what this lineup can do.
Re 2016-19; Vijay had phases he was really great at, and Nair, Mayank, Shaw, Rohit, etc all scored runs, especially at home; whenever there was window. 21-23 was just very poor batting though.
 

GirthQuake

U19 12th Man
Don't. Pujara was a genuinely great player of spin and Kohli is far from poor, though has habit of getting out badly. Only Rahane among them was better in swinging away conditions.
I cannot decide which one of the two gems above is funnier.

1. ''Kohli is far from poor though has a habit of getting out badly''

2. ''Only Rahane among them was better in swinging away conditions''

You earn two Khap gold medals!
 

PaulLennon

U19 Vice-Captain
Re 2016-19; Vijay had phases he was really great at, and Nair, Mayank, Shaw, Rohit, etc all scored runs, especially at home; whenever there was window. 21-23 was just very poor batting though.
Yup. 21-23 apart from Rohit, Pant and Iyer did somewhat well.

This Eng series was first time since then with big top order runs.
 

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
I cannot decide which one of the two gems above is funnier.

1. ''Kohli is far from poor though has a habit of getting out badly''

2. ''Only Rahane among them was better in swinging away conditions''

You earn two Khap gold medals!
1. Kohli averages 60+ home, even now. He is not a great player of spin, but him being a bad one is peak stupidity. Sehwag also had habit of poor dismissals, yet that won't stop you to rant how he was the best.

2. Yeah, Rahane wasn't great spin. And?? Most of the openers who played like Agarwal etc were still very good.
 

Apex Predator

State Vice-Captain
Who are Indian batters good vs Spin?

It's Rohit, Pant, and Jadeja.
None of them were playing that Test somehow. Two of them being lefties too.

Overall Indian batting was still better vs spin but not massively better.
In my opinion going into test series India didn't even had one left hander to tackle left arm spin that time.
Dravid & TM had clearly messed up the playing XI wrt red soil Mumbai's raging Turner. Mayank is freakishly good player of spin if not for him we lose that test and series too.
 

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