I don't think Santner is needed outside Asia, Philips will do the job. Nathan Smith is due a debut and should be the no.8. Sears can play in place of an injured Jamieson.
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*Official* New Zealand tour of India 2024
- Thread starter capt_Luffy
- Start date
ashley bach
Cricketer Of The Year
Amongst all the surprise package performances this series one of the most astounding was how Southee was able to hang around and score 65.
He literally hasn't taken a trick with the bat in an age. Yes he can bosh the odd 6 but he doesn't last long at the crease these days.
His efforts came totally and utterly out of the blue imo and the partnership went a mile and a half to help winning the game.
He literally hasn't taken a trick with the bat in an age. Yes he can bosh the odd 6 but he doesn't last long at the crease these days.
His efforts came totally and utterly out of the blue imo and the partnership went a mile and a half to help winning the game.
anonymouskefe
U19 Debutant
Also thought be bowled well both games even bowled an over all above 130k's first time ive seen him do that in years
NZTailender
I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Yeah he hasn't taken a bag but by the sounds of it he hasn't been terrible and the wickets he has taken have been Sharma for 0 and 2 and then ended Sarfaraz's rampage (less impressive though I guess) in an innings where he was the only bowler to go at under 4s.
thundaboult
International Debutant
With respects to durability, if we take southee out of the test team (and we definitely should, totally agree with howsie) ... we are losing our only durable test bowler who can last a whole series.
I don't believe any one of henry, o'rourke, fisher and especially sears + jamieson are durable bowlers who last a series let alone a season. I don't know much about nathan smith's injury record to be fair ... but I haven't heard anything negative here either that he's always injured. Definitely do need a constant presence in the test attack, a guy who's always there bowling seam. Southee has been that guy. And back in the day he had boult + wagner who were just as durable. (well wags only played 1 format but still he put in a spinner's amount of overs type shift)
Out of those 6 (henry, jamo, o rourke, fisher, sears, smith) in the para above, I am expecting at least 2 of them to be regularly unavailable cuz of injury. That's how dire it is. That leaves us 4 seamers to choose from and regularly rotate between them as there's simply too muxh fragility amongst em.
I don't believe any one of henry, o'rourke, fisher and especially sears + jamieson are durable bowlers who last a series let alone a season. I don't know much about nathan smith's injury record to be fair ... but I haven't heard anything negative here either that he's always injured. Definitely do need a constant presence in the test attack, a guy who's always there bowling seam. Southee has been that guy. And back in the day he had boult + wagner who were just as durable. (well wags only played 1 format but still he put in a spinner's amount of overs type shift)
Out of those 6 (henry, jamo, o rourke, fisher, sears, smith) in the para above, I am expecting at least 2 of them to be regularly unavailable cuz of injury. That's how dire it is. That leaves us 4 seamers to choose from and regularly rotate between them as there's simply too muxh fragility amongst em.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
He's always injured.
Well not quite, but:
- Missed the 2nd half of the 2024 county seasons I think due to a hamstring tear.
- Missed almost all of the 2022/23 season
- Missed half of the 2020/21 season
thierry henry
International Coach
Just re: Santner, I've gone back and forth with people many times (I was doing it recently on reddit ffs) about how he is misrepresented as a bowler. This is not so much about his actual likely performance, more just the attributes he possesses.
I know I'm not alone in this view among CW nerds - I've never agreed with this idea that he's just a "holding bowler" and I think he pretty visibly has the attributes to take wickets in turning conditions. Most importantly, he gets bounce and contrary to popular belief he does spin the ball. He is capable of flighting the ball and getting it to rip, and also of darting it in and getting it to either slide on or turn a bit, in a vaguely Jadeja-ish manner.
The issue is not his attributes or lack thereof, rather it's the intractable issue that he will never get the reps in to hone this style of bowling. He didn't start his international career with a weight of FC wickets behind him, he's stuck on the international treadmill, his style of bowling is unlikely to be particularly effective in home tests, and he hasn't previously done enough to demand ongoing selection in our away test side. These are just facts of life, and I'm certainly not suggesting he has been hard done by in selection - actually I'd say our selectors have been relatively indulgent with him. I just think it was always conceivable that he could take bags in the subcontinent, not by coming up with a doosra or whatever, but by constructing spells of bowling using his existing attributes in a way he hadn't previously done.
I know I'm not alone in this view among CW nerds - I've never agreed with this idea that he's just a "holding bowler" and I think he pretty visibly has the attributes to take wickets in turning conditions. Most importantly, he gets bounce and contrary to popular belief he does spin the ball. He is capable of flighting the ball and getting it to rip, and also of darting it in and getting it to either slide on or turn a bit, in a vaguely Jadeja-ish manner.
The issue is not his attributes or lack thereof, rather it's the intractable issue that he will never get the reps in to hone this style of bowling. He didn't start his international career with a weight of FC wickets behind him, he's stuck on the international treadmill, his style of bowling is unlikely to be particularly effective in home tests, and he hasn't previously done enough to demand ongoing selection in our away test side. These are just facts of life, and I'm certainly not suggesting he has been hard done by in selection - actually I'd say our selectors have been relatively indulgent with him. I just think it was always conceivable that he could take bags in the subcontinent, not by coming up with a doosra or whatever, but by constructing spells of bowling using his existing attributes in a way he hadn't previously done.
anonymouskefe
U19 Debutant
anyone got ideas as to why our bowlers are so injury It's frustrating watching the cummins, starc and hazelwood almost never injured, although hazelwood as of late has missed a bit
Immenso
International Vice-Captain
Yeah.
Where he is hard done by is as a casualty of the hopeless nz domestic scheduling.
After he made his test debut (which was a hunch selection rather than a numbers selection) he didn't play another Plunket Shield match for 3 and a half years. (Looks like he only got that opportunity to play some PS because he was dropped from the test team for a home series where we used Todd Astle or 5 seamers)
Not enough meat being eaten.
Bahnz
Hall of Fame Member
I don't think it's a case of our bowlers being more injury prone. NZ just doesn't produce as many test quality bowlers as Australia does, so when they break down we tend to feel it more. Australia always have a half dozen bowlers at any time who can slot into the national side and average sub-30. When one of them breaks down injured, Australia moves on to next cab off the rank, and over time the ones who can take the rigors of international cricket tend to become the regulars. A big part of NZ's comparative success over the last decade was just down to the three best bowlers in the country all being able to stay fit and available. The 00's and early 2010's might've been a much happier period if Bond, Franklin, Oram and Vettori hadn't had their careers shortened/affected by injury.
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straw man
Hall of Fame Member
Has to be Henry, both as a reasonably consistently fit presence, and as the last member of the previous generation who passes on knowledge and skills to the younger bowlers. They would still be benefitting from Southee's presence at the moment too, even if his bowling has lost its zip.
wellAlbidarned
International Coach
yeah kimber had a visual showing santner vs other 30 year old-ish finger spinners and he has less than a third of the FC deliveries than what he should
I was thinking about this the other day and I think in all the things that have contributed to this test series victory, Southee's innings is probably significantly underrated and incredibly important in what has transpired. We had a lead of 190 when he arrived at 7 down and that's the usual situation when he and others slog out, we get a 200 odd lead then India's 400+ has the potential to be a lot more dangerous. But he batted exactly as we've asked him to for 17 years. That's his best test innings, daylight is second. It was so un-Southee but so, so good.
This, incidentally, does not mean I think he should be picked against England because he shouldn't.
Yeah that occurred to me as well, then I resolved in my mind that Ajaz is very formulaic and has probably reached his ceiling as a bowler. He's a one or two speed guy, turns it the same amount, very dependable in the right conditions but probably doesn't have any more strings to his bow. He's done incredibly well to go from being a club left arm seamer to a test spinner under Dipak Patel's guidance (who also turned Mark Craig from a batsman whose career was over with chronic fatigue to a test spinner)
I might argue that Santner is the bigger enigma - he's been capable of much more for so long but hasn't gone near it until this week. Tall guy, ****sure swagger, turns it, and I dunno - there's this intangible that always made me feel he was going to make it in Test cricket. I've always thought he would until the last year. Then I figured he didn't want it enough. But now, seemingly, he does, the coach (to his credit,) has backed him in, and obviously Santner has resolved in his mind that he wants to make a mark in Tests, not just be a franchise guy. And with all those tangibles and intangibles (I always felt the fact he's a better than scratch golfer is relevant, like Ricky Ponting) he's been in the perfect place and the perfect time for a mentor like Herath.