***Official*** New Zealand in Zimbabwe & Zimbabwe/New Zealand/India ODI Tri-Series

[Nate]

You really think so or are you influenced by the archer amongst the Pandavas ?

Bahutule doesnt deserve to be in the first three Indian teams. He never did.

Harsh!

 

[SJS]

Harsh!

Have you seen him. I have. From close. I live in the same city. Trust me, this is not harsh. It is just a fact.

He did promise much as a youngster. He hasnt developed beyond a point and is not a youngster anymore. He is not good enough on merit nor deserving to be tried as fresh blood.

 

[Nate]

Can`t say I have. But in the last Indian domestic season I followed his progress closely, and he was always doing well.

 

[SJS]

Oh sure

A couple means two..right ?

In the last 5 years (from Jan 2001 till date), rahul Dravid has been an outstanding one day batsman for India.

He has scored more runs (3858) than any other Indian batsman at an average of 41.9 second only to Tendulkar and far better than anyother batsman !!

He has played, during this period, 35 inings of fifty or above (inclusive of 3 centuries). This is far more than any other Indian batsman again. Ganguly , who has played 6 matches more is next with 31 scores above fifty.

This when for most of this period he was also doubling up as wicket keeper.

Since he started keeping wickets he hasnt been sent at his prefered place in the batting order of number three, most of the time. In his career he has batted 90 times at that number and averaged 40.6 with 7 centuries and 21 fifties.

Now that he has been relieved of keeping duties, there is no better anchor than Dravid for India and he must go back to number three.

It was one thing to have Laxman or Sachin or Ganguly going above him (since he will not force the issue) but to see Kaif being sent above him must really hurt this proud cricketer. we have done enough damage to his self respect by unceremoniously relieving him of captaincy (with no justification whatsoever). We should desist from adding insult to injury.

His drooping shoulders and general demeanour, including the hesitancy with which he accpeted and conducted himself as acting captain in Ganguly's brief absence from the field the other day was too clear for anyone who was watching. There may be other (psychological) reasons too to his sudden lack of form.

This quiet and dedicated cricketer is not devoid of sensibilities which are treaded upon again and again by the administrators because he seems to be so flexible and non confrontational.

 

[SJS]

Can`t say I have. But in the last Indian domestic season I followed his progress closely, and he was always doing well.

Never in the crunch situation. He fails on the big occasion almost always.

 

[Jono]

So where should Kaif bat then SJS? He's shown he isn't good at coming in and hitting runs quickly. He is a very fit player, who is extremely quick between the wickets. Seems very good for the number 3 position. I really can't see how Dravid batting at 4 should hurt him.

Now with Ganguly in the team, and Sachin back there are problems because Dravid coming in at 5 is far too low, but so is Kaif coming in at 6 or 7!

 

[Steulen]

So the easy answer is to retire Ganguly once Tendulkar returns, right?

Not going to happen, but it would balance the India side. Battingwise, that is. The lack of decent bowlers is a bigger problem.

 

[SJS]

So where should Kaif bat then SJS? He's shown he isn't good at coming in and hitting runs quickly. He is a very fit player, who is extremely quick between the wickets. Seems very good for the number 3 position. I really can't see how Dravid batting at 4 should hurt him.

Now with Ganguly in the team, and Sachin back there are problems because Dravid coming in at 5 is far too low, but so is Kaif coming in at 6 or 7!

Well first of all, I dont think Ganguly should be in the team. So if sachin was to return to opening, I would have
Sehwag, Sachin, Dravid, Kaif, Yuvraj at the top.

If Ganguly has to be there, he has to go at number six. He can still hit the spinners, slower bowlers for those big sixes, hopefully but he doesnt seem to be doing anything to deserve a place above the other five.

I think Kaif is fine at number four. The difference between three and four is small but vital. It is a place where you may have to come in from the first over of the match. Kaif is not equipped for that. Of course, even number four can come in in the first over but theoretically so can number 7 !!

For Kaif number four would be perfect. I dont think Yuvraj, if he continues to command a place in the side should bat above five unless of course we have a fantastic start and are 200 for 1 or something in which case he can come. I am talking in normal situation.

 

[Lyell_Chris]

Oh sure

A couple means two..right ?

I was being sarcastic

Dravid is one of the best batsmen in the world of course he should be 3, if kaif is any good he should be able to adjust to 4

 

[SJS]

I was being sarcastic

I realised that. My sarcasm (about couple being two) was not aimed at you but teaming up with you.

 

[Lyell_Chris]

ok when you said "oh sure" I didn't know whether you realised it or not

It doesn't really matter who bats where consistancy is the biggest problem

 

[honestbharani]

Why should Dravid not bat at number three ??

What has he done wrong ?

I think his best ODI performances have come at 4 or 5 than 3. But if he is willing, then why not.

 

[Sanz]

I think his best ODI performances have come at 4 or 5 than 3. But if he is willing, then why not.

Exactly. I dont know why it has to become an issue though. Kaif's game is suited to No.3-4 or say early in the innings. His best performances have come when he has got time to settle in. On the other hand Dravid has succeeded at 3/4/5 equally well and infact has done slightly better at 5. He has the technique to bat at 5, He can bat with the tail better than Kaif can.

I have often seen on this forum people come with their own agenda. Dravid should bat at no. 3 and that's it, if he is moved an inch from there, then he must have done something wrong.

Err not really, Dravid is a player who cant do much wrong as a cricketer, can he ? But that said, it is not really about Dravid here, It's about Indian team. Some of us believe that Indian Team is better off with Kaif at no. 3 and Dravid @ 4/5 and we have our reasons to believe that. If you feel otherwise then come up with a better argument instead of coming up with posts like 'What wrong has Dravid Done' .

 

[honestbharani]

Plus, I think we need to break up the experienced guys a little bit. Their experience is of no use if it is not used to guide the youngsters through. Sachin at the top and Dravid at the middle seems good to me, as those will be the only two batters with real experience in our side if Sourav is axed.

 

[Sanz]

For the Stats buffs - Since 2001 Dravid has batted 111 times and out of those 111 innings, he has batted @ No. 3 only 3 times (so much for him doing things wrong, IMO discussion should end here itself), 60 times he has batted at no. 4, 40 times @ 5 and 6 times @ number 6. The remaining two innings he has played as an opener.

Now coming back to the averages - @ No. 4 Dravid averages 40.52, @No. 5 he averages 46.37. Since he has played only handful of matches @ No. 3 It would be injustice to Dravid to count the stats but just for the record, he averaged 30.33 (in 3 matches @ no. 3), 16.50 (at opening in 2 matches) and 88.50 (in 6 matches @ no. 6).

Since we didn't have enough data to check out Dravid's no. 3 performances, I went back to the search criteria and changed the start date to 2000-01-01 (in stead of 2001-01-01). Guess what ? Things dont look much better either :-

since 2000 Dravid averaged 33.45 in 25 matches @ no. 3, 39.38 in 64 matches @ no. 4, 46.17 in 42 matches @ no. 5.

Before I finish, It is fairly clear that Dravid has hardly batted at no. 3 in last 5 years and has definately been more successful in ODIs than he was in the first half of his career when he mostly batted at no. 3. Also since Dravid hardly batted @ no. 3 in last 5 year, what is the harm in having a permanent No. 3 in Kaif and Dravid continuing to bat @ 4/5 ?

 

[Zinzan]

I dont think so. These 'would have', 'could have' arguments are based on your assumption. India had a better start than NZ, they still ended up scoring only 276. .

India had a better start?? Have another look at the scorecard

 

[marc71178]

I think he meant in the Indian innings - they got off to a great start.

 

[shaka]

more Dravid stats: pre June 2004, percentage of bowled dismissals 18%, post Jun '04 is 33%. interesting and most have come in the videocon series.

 

[Sanz]

India had a better start?? Have another look at the scorecard

Err, have a look yourself and see what was India's score after 25 overs and then look at Nz's score after 25 overs and tell us who was better at that point ?

 

[Zinzan]

Err, have a look yourself and see what was India's score after 25 overs and then look at Nz's score after 25 overs and tell us who was better at that point ?

So you convienently define the "start" as the middle (25 overs) do you??

After 15 overs (A period most would define as the start) New Zealand were well ahead