**Official** New Zealand in West Indies

[straw man]

Trouble is, Watling didn't stay there long enough. Left when he was 10, still some angry Proteas breeding left to be done.

Apparently he can't walk, and won't be picked for the XII or whatever it is. So given Boult is also injured, it's down to 13. Nethula will probably miss out, then it's a case of whether it's four seamers or three seamers and whether Flynn/Brownlie misses out.

I didn't know it was confirmed that Watling and Boult are still unavailable. Disappointing.

 

[Bahnz]

Taylor
Ryder
Ronchi
McCullum
Williamson
Brownlie
Vettori
Flynn
van Wyk
Woodcock

 

[straw man]

You missed the next to Woodcock

 

[Bahnz]

You missed the next to Woodcock

Woodcock's record over his last 3 seasons for Wellington: 1766 runs @ 57.

 

[Flem274*]

Taylor
Ryder
Ronchi
McCullum
Williamson
Brownlie
Vettori
Flynn
van Wyk
Woodcock

WAC. Hand in your citizenship.

But thank you for reminding me in an obscure way I forgot Franklin. I don't think Guptill is honestly much better, if at all, in the long format.

 

[Flem274*]

Woodcock's record over his last 3 seasons for Wellington: 1766 runs @ 57.

This is why everyone laughs at ND.

 

[Bahnz]

WAC. Hand in your citizenship.

But thank you for reminding me in an obscure way I forgot Franklin. I don't think Guptill is honestly much better, if at all, in the long format.

Who knows, if we're lucky maybe Guptill will suffer a bad injury, and then decide to reinvent himself as a really quite good medium fast swing bowler.

 

[straw man]

Woodcock's record over his last 3 seasons for Wellington: 1766 runs @ 57.

You're right. Woodcock to open for NZ

He had a poor season last season iirc and two amazing seasons before that. Wellington road etc

 

[straw man]

WAC. Hand in your citizenship.

But thank you for reminding me in an obscure way I forgot Franklin. I don't think Guptill is honestly much better, if at all, in the long format.

Franklin absence makes the heart grow fonder.

 

[straw man]

Hadn't realised Brownlie was lbw to a spinner again in the second innings. Such a bunny to spin atm.

Sounds like our top 3 really struggled against the new ball too - I mean you can tell that from the scorecard but also this commentary really rubs it in:

The tone was set for New Zealand's second innings when the out-of-form Daniel Flynn was dropped down the legside with the opening delivery.

He made only one more run until a brute of a ball from Kemar Roach took his glove and was caught.

Opening partner Martin Guptill also failed again, scoring seven, and McCullum was peppered early. He was almost caught close in on the leg side, survived a big lbw shout then was bowled by a Roach yorker from a no-ball.

Captain Ross Taylor was also dropped early on from President's XI spinner and captain Veerasammy Permaul's bowling, just beat a direct hit from Shiv Chanderpaul then slogged out to off-spinner Shane Shillingford for 19.

 

[Bahnz]

You're right. Woodcock to open for NZ

He had a poor season last season iirc and two amazing seasons before that. Wellington road etc

Hahah! Averaged 60+ last season! But his 2010/11 was poor (although it was also short, as he was, for some unfathomable reason, picked as a specialist spinner for the world cup).

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Shocked at how highly Ryder is still rated. Was optimistic about him year or two ago, but the guy is a tool and he's never going to perform or even stay fit consistently imo.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I'd still say he's the most talented batsman we have. However, the psychological side of cricket is huge, and if he can't sort himself out then that prodigious talent will go wasted.

 

[Bahnz]

Yeah, agree with that. Ryder is so prodigously talented, that he really doesn't really need to be that consistent. He's still capable of doing things that no other New Zealand batsman can (including Taylor). If he had half a brain and the motivation to make the most of himself, I reckon he'd average at least in the mid 40's in test cricket. Even as he is, he still gives Taylor a run for his money in both forms of the game (at least when he's fit).

In time, I reckon Kane will surpass him, but not substantially. McCullum's defensive technique is too fragile to ever enable him to reach Taylor and Ryder's level. And none of the other batsmen on any of the lists above even approach those four in terms of ability.

 

[Scaly piscine]

This has to be Guptill's absolutely last chance btw. He's been making pretty twenties since 2009 or so.

If he ****s up, open with McCullum and someone else. Flynn can genuinely bat and is a better player than Guptill by far. Jury is still out on whether he has changed since 2008 but unlike others he can claim to be in the top five Shield batsmen outside the test bunch.

McCullum
xxx
Williamson
Taylor
xxx
Vettori
van Wyk/Watling
Bracewell
Wagner
Gillespie
Martin

That's our best side with Ryder/Brownlie/Flynn/Guptill/Watling fighting for two spots if KvW keeps wicket, and Boult is the first reserve quick.

I actually think this is one of the few occasions when NZ should play 3 bowlers plus Vettori. That is of course assumes Williamson is getting a lot of time in the nets and in practice matches, so he's confident in his bowling to at least know he'll get it on a length. Of course he bowled zero overs in the warm-up game, which I find rather strange unless for some reason he can't bowl. In West Indies you want 5 options and two of them should be spinners - but the spinners only really need to be able to just roll it out on a length and the pitch usually does the rest.

 

[straw man]

Yeah, agree with that. Ryder is so prodigously talented, that he really doesn't really need to be that consistent. He's still capable of doing things that no other New Zealand batsman can (including Taylor). If he had half a brain and the motivation to make the most of himself, I reckon he'd average at least in the mid 40's in test cricket. Even as he is, he still gives Taylor a run for his money in both forms of the game (at least when he's fit).

In time, I reckon Kane will surpass him, but not substantially. McCullum's defensive technique is too fragile to ever enable him to reach Taylor and Ryder's level. And none of the other batsmen on any of the lists above even approach those four in terms of ability.

There is really such a large gap between Taylor, Ryder and Williamson, and the rest of our batsmen. A massive gap. Those three generated huge anticipation and even hype for years before they played for NZ. They were teenage prodigies, always far far ahead of their peers - their names were said in hushed tones and talked of as the future of NZ cricket from very young ages.

It's a very sizable step down to the level of hype and anticipation for any of our other upcoming domestic batsmen. I remember when Watling and Guptill first started to play for their domestic sides - It was "there's this talented young guy, he looks pretty decent. Hopefully he'll improve a few things". Same before that with Broom and Nicol. But it was never "HOT DAMNNN GIMME SOME O THAT WILLIAMSON CHEEZBURGER GET HIM INNNNN THERERREE!!!!". And of these merely 'very good' domestic batsmen, there has not been ONE who was managed to step up and prove themselves as an adequate test batsman. Not even bloody one. I think last example of that would be Styris. Whether that's because they just did not have the talent to start with, or whether it's down to deficiencies in our coaching system or domestic game, I dunno.

The only other batsmen to churn out test runs for us in recent years are Vettori and McCullum, who both had extended runs in the side because they were selected for something else.

So, where is the next Williamson, Taylor or Ryder?

 

[BackFootPunch]

Of the guys who are just starting out in domestic cricket the most likely ones would be Latham and Craig Cachopa. They were the superstars in age group cricket. I know Latham is past the just starting out stage but he should be round for years. Hopefully.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Look - we're never going to have a team of talented batsmen. In Taylor and Ryder we're lucky in having two at the same time. Before them, it was Fleming and before Fleming it was Crowe. We've surrounded these guys in the past with decent batsmen who can do the job. Richardson wasn't "talented", Andrew Jones wasn't "talented" but they made the most of their skills by hard work and graft. We've always surrounded our one or two talented batsmen by guys who can do a job - and that's what we need to find in guys like Brrrrooom and Flynn. If you've got Taylor and Ryder (who should be averaging 40+ in Test cricket) and Williamson, then we can still perform adequately if we can get a couple of guys who can average 30+. Now, who are those guys who might not be the most fluent or orthodox but will put themselves on the line to achieve that?

 

[SteveNZ]

Scaly raised a good point, it would be interesting to find out why Williamson didn't bowl in the warm-up match. Guptill did, and Brownlie did. Brownlie I can understand, being a medium pacer, but Guptill I cannot. There's no way Nethula will play, and Southee probably won't, so it stands to reason Williamson will have overs to bowl in the first Test.

 

[straw man]

Look - we're never going to have a team of talented batsmen. In Taylor and Ryder we're lucky in having two at the same time. Before them, it was Fleming and before Fleming it was Crowe. We've surrounded these guys in the past with decent batsmen who can do the job. Richardson wasn't "talented", Andrew Jones wasn't "talented" but they made the most of their skills by hard work and graft. We've always surrounded our one or two talented batsmen by guys who can do a job - and that's what we need to find in guys like Brrrrooom and Flynn. If you've got Taylor and Ryder (who should be averaging 40+ in Test cricket) and Williamson, then we can still perform adequately if we can get a couple of guys who can average 30+. Now, who are those guys who might not be the most fluent or orthodox but will put themselves on the line to achieve that?

Exactly... but why do these next-rung-down batsmen time and time again fail to push their game up high enough to be comfortable, if not brilliant, at international level? I'm not writing off Flynn, Guptill or Brownlie yet, but there's a very well-worn path of failing and going back down to being a domestic hero, and a pretty overgrown and seemingly impenetrable path up the mountain to success.