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*Official** New Zealand in England

anzac

International Debutant
based upon the above my biggest concern is a worst case scenario re Papps, Fleming & Astle - i.e. the openers - none of whom may be available to play because of their current injuries..........

I've already referred to Sinclair as one potential opener, but who else from Marshall, McMillan, Styris, Hopkins, Harris?????? certainly not Cairns or Oram.......unless they bring in another batsman who can play as opener then I can only see 2 options - Marshall & McMillan, and as much as I'd hate to see it I think they'd use Marshall as I think he has opened in an ODI this year.........(however that would stuff the 'balance' in the middle order IMO)....

worst case scenario:
Sinclair, Marshall, Styris, Harris, McMillan, Cairns, Oram, Hopkins, Wiseman, Mills, Butler

too fragile at the top & I'd rather see Macca told to do a Sehwag & Marshall remain at #3.............
 

Arjun

Cricketer Of The Year
IMO both Mills & Mason are better prospects & even Franklin has better stats........
Even with all the six-ball no-balls? That almost gave away a match to the South Africans!
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
I went to the whole match and enjoyed it a lot. New Zealand were ahead for the whole game until the morning of day four, when their bowlers simply disntegrated. Rather like what happened to England's bowlers on the morning of day four at Headingley last year, with similar consequences.

It was a pretty typical Headingley pitch. No more than decent on day one, getting worse throughout.

And I *love* watching Tests at Headingley (this was my 17th). I've seen great games of cricket, tussles in which the advantage swings from side to side and it tends to take a great performance to win the game. I saw Gooch's 154*, Butcher's 173*, Vengsarkar's 61 & 102*, Dravid's 148, Kirsten's 131 - all of them innings played in severe conditions and mostly against fine bowling - and I treasure those memories of truly great innings, which you could *never* see at Adelaide or St John's. Sure, I've seen England sides torn to pieces by good bowlers on terror tracks - but I've never seen it done by a bad bowler, either for or against England. You have to be *good* to succeed at Headingley.

I'd hate it if *every* Test was a Headingley Test, but I think it's fantastic that one Test in a series favours the bowlers instead of the pampered batsmen. And time and again, Headingley proves that it's not enough to have a poor pitch - you have to have the bowlers who can and will exploit it. The margin for bowler error at Headingley is small - if the bowlers don't concentrate and bowl accurate line and length, they *will* get carted on one of the fastest outfields around (since it's downhill in just about every direction except straight towards the Kirkstall Lane end).

But without Headingley, without Galle, without a classic Indian dustbowl (for some reason I have almost no idea about the individual characteristics of particular Indian grounds), without Sabina Park, without the SCG, without the WACA, Test cricket would be so much poorer.

So, stop whingeing about the damn pitch.

To turn to the actual play, the difference between the NZ and England first innings was mostly which error the bowlers made consistently. They had to get the length exactly right, and that length was a fairly full one. England's bowlers were afraid of overpitching and kept dropping short, and New Zealand's batsmen largely preferred to leave. NZ's bowlers went the other way, overpitching a lot and allowing England's batsmen to drive. You only have to look at where the teams scored their runs, NZ 70% behind square compared to England's 60% in front.

Saggers was the exception in England's first innings, possibly because he was uncontaminated by the WI experience, in which regularly dropping short was effective because WI batsmen were prepared to take the short ball on, but pretty much useless against leavers. But Saggers is not a world-class bowler. He's a good bowler who deserves to be on the fringes of a Test side, and is a much better answer to the question "Who shall we pick when our best bowlers are injured?" than, say, Kabir Ali or, by all accounts, Kyle Mills.

The conventional wisdom on Hoggard is that he's great when it swings but is otherwise innocuous. I've certainly expressed that opinion before, but I've changed my mind. Hoggard is innocuous until he takes a wicket, after which his confidence soars, he gains a yard of pace, and he runs in with real aggression. The correlation with when the ball swings is that since he tends to swing it naturally, it is much more likely that he will take the necessary wicket early on and be a power in the land for the rest of the innings.

Papps and Fleming played very well together in the circs. Reading through the earlier posts, I spotted the odd comment to the effect that Papps is the worst batsman some people have ever seen, which seems to me to be on a par with the comments to the effect that Harmison was the worst fast bowler someone had ever seen. Papps to me looks like a pretty rough diamond as yet, but there's quite a bit to work with there.

But the NZ batsman I'm seriously impressed with is McCullum. He looks to me to be a number six - he's done well at three as an injury sub, but I think his style is more suited to the lower middle order. However, I'm not at all impressed with his wicketkeeping, since it's even worse than Jones's. (Can anyone remember another Test series where both alleged wicketkeepers were so stunningly bad?)

Tresco's hundred was the best innings I've seen him play. It provides no evidence about how he can cope with 88mph+ bowlers, which have consistently given him troubles for two years now, and it's certainly possible to deduce that since he's a weak attack bully and he bullied New Zealand's, New Zealand have a weak attack. But. He didn't, as far as I can remember, chase wide balls outside off with his arms outstretched. He drove straight, and his extra cover drives went to extra cover's right instead of left, which shows that he was getting his head over the shot. In other words, it was the most technically sound innings I've seen from him in ages. I'm still suspicious about what he might do against real pace, but I'm a lot less unhappy with him than I was.

If Flintoff reckons that he never felt comfortable at the crease, felt out of form and was really having to scrap for his runs....

Jones's hundred has entirely convinced me about his batting skills. I'm still not convinced about his keeping, although Headingley is a horrible pitch to keep on and it's possible that having unveiled his batting he will be more relaxed behind the stumps. We'll see.

The field set for Harmison and Hoggard at the end of day four is one I've never seen before: four slips, spinner's gully, silly mid-off, forward short leg, long leg and a fly slip (deep first slip for Hoggard, deep third slip for Harmison). That, and the way in which Vaughan seemed to take an interest in his bowlers and what they wanted to do rather than dictate a la Hussain, made me feel that Vaughan's captaincy is maturing nicely.

I'm beginning to feel quite sorry for the Harmosceptics. All they have left to hang their disapproval of him on is his apparent inability to bowl a good first over of a day or innings. The second and third spell will begin fine, but his first over of the day is usually horrifically bad. But there isn't anything else left.

I'm amused to find that Stephen Fleming has joined the ranks of idiots who compare him to McGrath. Asked if Harmison could be England's McGrath, he replied, "I wouldn't hold him back to a Glenn McGrath role. I'm not demeaning Glenn, but Harmison is a more dynamic bowler. He has a #2 ranking in the world and had the natural attributes to expose the inconsistent bounce more than any other bowler." Fleming is obviously another ignoramus, since he can only base his opinions on facing the two bowlers in Test matches, whereas the experts on this board have the advantage of being able to go strictly by reputations.

Just a bunch of random thoughts after five enjoyable days.

Cheers,

Mike
 

Loony BoB

International Captain
badgerhair said:
I'm amused to find that Stephen Fleming has joined the ranks of idiots who compare him to McGrath. Asked if Harmison could be England's McGrath, he replied, "I wouldn't hold him back to a Glenn McGrath role. I'm not demeaning Glenn, but Harmison is a more dynamic bowler. He has a #2 ranking in the world and had the natural attributes to expose the inconsistent bounce more than any other bowler." Fleming is obviously another ignoramus, since he can only base his opinions on facing the two bowlers in Test matches, whereas the experts on this board have the advantage of being able to go strictly by reputations.
Big words to say that Fleming is an ignoramus, let alone to say it's "obvious", let alone to say that we are experts. If you were such an expert, you would know a lot better than to put yourself above (correct me if I'm wrong) the third most experienced captain in test history, and arguably one of the best captains in cricket history.

Very big words indeed.
 

Loony BoB

International Captain
anzac said:
based upon the above my biggest concern is a worst case scenario re Papps, Fleming & Astle - i.e. the openers - none of whom may be available to play because of their current injuries..........

I've already referred to Sinclair as one potential opener, but who else from Marshall, McMillan, Styris, Hopkins, Harris?????? certainly not Cairns or Oram.......unless they bring in another batsman who can play as opener then I can only see 2 options - Marshall & McMillan, and as much as I'd hate to see it I think they'd use Marshall as I think he has opened in an ODI this year.........(however that would stuff the 'balance' in the middle order IMO)....

worst case scenario:
Sinclair, Marshall, Styris, Harris, McMillan, Cairns, Oram, Hopkins, Wiseman, Mills, Butler

too fragile at the top & I'd rather see Macca told to do a Sehwag & Marshall remain at #3.............
I get the feeling either Astle or Papps will end up playing. Just a hunch, mind you - maybe someone out there knows more than I do, but Astle hasn't been that troubled since he came over. I'm not sure how bad Papps really is, though.
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
Loony BoB said:
Big words to say that Fleming is an ignoramus, let alone to say it's "obvious", let alone to say that we are experts. If you were such an expert, you would know a lot better than to put yourself above (correct me if I'm wrong) the third most experienced captain in test history, and arguably one of the best captains in cricket history.

Very big words indeed.
You may remember that I am the one who has been comparing Harmison's progress to that of McGrath in detail since before the WI series, and that I have been told that I am a complete idiot to insult the great McGrath in such a way. I am happy to welcome Fleming to the ranks of the idiots.

I would have thought that my last sentence would have made it abundantly clear that I was castigating the Harmosceptics rather than agreeing with them, but maybe I should have added a few smileys for the hard-of-thinking.

Cheers,

Mike
 

anzac

International Debutant
Loony BoB said:
Big words to say that Fleming is an ignoramus, let alone to say it's "obvious", let alone to say that we are experts. If you were such an expert, you would know a lot better than to put yourself above (correct me if I'm wrong) the third most experienced captain in test history, and arguably one of the best captains in cricket history.

Very big words indeed.
I think it was meant as tongue in cheek & meant to imply the opposite.....

i.e. we so called experts don't rate Harmison based only upon our opinions & observations, yet probably the current best Test skipper rates him as highly as McGrath having actually faced both............
 

Loony BoB

International Captain
badgerhair said:
You may remember that I am the one who has been comparing Harmison's progress to that of McGrath in detail since before the WI series, and that I have been told that I am a complete idiot to insult the great McGrath in such a way. I am happy to welcome Fleming to the ranks of the idiots.

I would have thought that my last sentence would have made it abundantly clear that I was castigating the Harmosceptics rather than agreeing with them, but maybe I should have added a few smileys for the hard-of-thinking.

Cheers,

Mike
Ah, I always find it hard to read sarcasm on boards without smilies coming in to play, sorry. I think the big long serious-type post threw me off. :p Oops.

EDIT: I just came home from a hard day's work and have a cold and and and *goes off to think of more excuses and discover food*
 
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anzac

International Debutant
Arjun said:
Even with all the six-ball no-balls? That almost gave away a match to the South Africans!

:huh:

if you're referring to Pollocks Last Stand in the ODI at Auckland - I wasn't aware of many no balls in that last over.............and Mills got his wicket in the end...............

from memory Mills was trying / bowling what conventional thinking tells you to bowl in those circumstances - he was trying to put it up into yorkers / low ankle height full tosses so as not to give Pollock any height to work with.......... once Pollock got hold of a straight delivery he tried the same length pitched outside off, then back into his pads etc.........

but he kept his length up at the batsman & into him, as opposed to being tempted into dropping it short.............

IMO more of a result based upon a cameo of incredible timing & hitting from Pollock, as opposed to crap bowling from Mills...............
 

anzac

International Debutant
Loony BoB said:
I get the feeling either Astle or Papps will end up playing. Just a hunch, mind you - maybe someone out there knows more than I do, but Astle hasn't been that troubled since he came over. I'm not sure how bad Papps really is, though.
only if they are 100% fit - enough of this walking wounded crap...............I'm concerned that cricinfo report that both Tuffey & Astle still have knee problems - I know that was Astle's original injury in IND & then he broke down again with the other knee prior to RSA, but Tuffey's injury v RSA was a groin strain wasn't it???? He had injured his knee / fluid drained in the PAK series...........so maybe he hasn't been right since then!!!!!

if this is the case & we persist in playing these guys we will revisit the scenes of PAK's earlier tour to NZL when Vettori, Nash(?) & O'Connor broke down again, and O'Connor never got back..........

re Papps - one report has it as a broken knuckle, another as a broken little finger like Macca, yet I can't see the latter keeping him off the field for as long as it did..............
 

PY

International Coach
badgerhair said:
but maybe I should have added a few smileys for the hard-of-thinking.

Cheers,

Mike
Yes please. :innocent: :whistling

'Tis always difficult with sarcasm on message boards. :)

One thing I do have a gripe with though is the comment about Trescothick, I was home for Easter from university and was trying to find room on a VHS to tape something. To my delight, I found highlights of Marcus Trescothick in the one day series against Pakistan (now been taped over by the mother whilst I'm in Sheffield :ranting:).

In this series, he had to face Shoaib and Sami (two of the fastest in the world I think) and he had absolutely no problems against them. In fact, he played some of the most fabulous shots at the Oval. Now why do you think he can do that against them two but not against any other really quick guys?

To be quite honest, I've never noticed a problem with the pace of the delivery for Trescothick but as soon as it gets lateral movement, he's buggered to be frank. Is it something along those lines? Or just common sense that he relies a lot on his hand-eye co-ordination and therefore with the real fast guys, he has less time to react?
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
PY said:
One thing I do have a gripe with though is the comment about Trescothick,

In this series, he had to face Shoaib and Sami (two of the fastest in the world I think) and he had absolutely no problems against them. In fact, he played some of the most fabulous shots at the Oval. Now why do you think he can do that against them two but not against any other really quick guys?

To be quite honest, I've never noticed a problem with the pace of the delivery for Trescothick but as soon as it gets lateral movement, he's buggered to be frank. Is it something along those lines? Or just common sense that he relies a lot on his hand-eye co-ordination and therefore with the real fast guys, he has less time to react?
I note that you didn't see him do it in a Test match where there were three or four slips and a gully instead of a one-day field. I've got no qualms about him opening in the one-day side.

It's the combination of high pace and the ball going away from him which mostly finds him out. He's able to deal with one *or* the other but not both. At least, that is how it looked during the Ashes series and all the way through until this series. But my point was that in this innings he showed very little sign of the looseness which has been his downfall when that combination appears.

Cheers,

Mike
Mike
 

PY

International Coach
I'll take your word for it on the pace issue as you are better placed.

I've always thought this 'looseness' you talk of was a bit strange because he used to be/is probably one of the best leavers of the ball in the England side. He always seems to know where his offstump is and is a master of playing inside the line. It's just that short outside offstump that seems to me to be his big weakness.

You are quite correct that I didn't see him in any previous series. I don't have Sky so wipes out Ashes, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and West Indies. Add to the fact that I had to work a lot last summer so didn't get to watch too much of him against South Africa so in theory, I haven't been able to analyse how he is playing and technique in detail for going on 2 years now.

Does it show?
 
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Neil Pickup

Request Your Custom Title Now!
chris.hinton said:
davies has taken the most wickets this year, and Powell the most runs. Also bell is Shite in one dayers
Bell's FC record: 3316 runs @ 38.55, 25 wickets @ 29.64
Bell's OD record: 1578 runs @ 35.06, 12 wickets @ 38.41 - hardly much different!

Davies and Powell are two of the more amusing suggestions ever - they even beat Ben Smith..

Mark Davies, whilst he has 36 CC wickets (and 7 List A (!!)), has been playing on a Riverside Ground conducive to seamers, and Cricinfo lists him as only a medium pacer. Last year he took 11 FC wickets @ 46. I wouldn't expect anything short of being smashed in International cricket.

And I've just realised you meant Andrew Davies. 42 FC wickets @ 37.83 in 21 games in 9 years of FC cricket suggests a lack of class. He has a decent enough list A record, granted, 93 @ 23.18, but if he was actually any good, you'd have thought he'd have played a single Championship game - or even a UCCE game, this season, would't you? Also, his economy rate - at 4.95 - is distinctly ordinary.

Michael Powell has 263 NCL runs @ 37.57. He's only top because Glamorgan have played so many more games than anyone else (and only 53 above Robert Croft at that). Anyway Weekes, Ward and Burns have more in the Second Division from less games.

Can safely say that they are not going to get picked.
 

PY

International Coach
You become the new face of Labour, Neil?

Castigation, castigation, castigation. :p
 

Neil Pickup

Request Your Custom Title Now!
PY said:
You become the new face of Labour, Neil?

Castigation, castigation, castigation. :p
It's the server's fault that it was posted three times.

But it really is that bad an idea.
 

badgerhair

U19 Vice-Captain
PY said:
I'll take your word for it on the pace issue as you are better placed.

I've always thought this 'looseness' you talk of was a bit strange because he used to be/is probably one of the best leavers of the ball in the England side. He always seems to know where his offstump is and is a master of playing inside the line. It's just that short outside offstump that seems to me to be his big weakness.
It's because I largely agree with you that I have been trying to work out exactly why he has failed so often. As far as I can see, my explanation fits the known facts, and other, simpler theories are too easy to give counterexamples to.

If someone's got a better theory, it would be nice to read it.


Cheers,

Mike
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
chris.hinton said:
davies has taken the most wickets this year, and Powell the most runs. Also bell is Shite in one dayers
Firstly it's about more than one season for player who have never been mentioned in terms of selection before.

Secondly, Powell (282) has been outscored by Weekes, Wood, Croft (!), Adams, Burns, Jefferson, Maynard, Joyce and Weston.

Thirdly, Davies has been outwicketed by Mahmood (as well as not having that great a career record)

And as for Bell, well his record isn't the best, but he is in superb form with bat (and ball) and sooner or later the selectors will want him involved with Team England...
 

SpaceMonkey

International Debutant
marc71178 said:
Firstly it's about more than one season for player who have never been mentioned in terms of selection before.

Secondly, Powell (282) has been outscored by Weekes, Wood, Croft (!), Adams, Burns, Jefferson, Maynard, Joyce and Weston.

Thirdly, Davies has been outwicketed by Mahmood (as well as not having that great a career record)

And as for Bell, well his record isn't the best, but he is in superb form with bat (and ball) and sooner or later the selectors will want him involved with Team England...
Bell WILL play for england sooner or later, they've invested too much money and time in him since he was 14, and he's finally showing the promise that people thought he had. Also his ability with the ball will make him more a one day player even if his batting in one day games isnt as hot as the longer version.

Also Joyce has long been admired by the england camp and i wouldnt be surprise if they try and fast track him into the side once he passes his residency or whatever it is, similar to Pieterson. The only problem is you have so many batters wanting to come into the side but so little places avaliable, but it does bode very well for when Thrope / Butcher finally call it quits whenever that will be.
 

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