*Official* New Zealand in England 2015

[Athlai]

Guptill has always been good enough to open our Test batting. Not because he is particularly good, but because high 20s, low 30s is genuinely going to be what we get from a Test opener.

Unlike Spudderford he isn't completely hopeless, once he sees off the new ball he can fill his boots better than anyone.

 

[Prince EWS]

I just hope he doesn't bat six. It'd be insane for New Zealand to voluntary pick three openers. It happens a ridiculously frequent amount for a Test team that has struggled so much to produce quality openers.

 

[Athlai]

I just hope he doesn't bat six. It'd be insane for New Zealand to voluntary pick three openers. It happens a ridiculously frequent amount for a Test team that has struggled so much to produce quality openers.

I am not a fan of the Guppy at 6 rumblings. 3 at lowest please, and that'll never happen again.

 

[straw man]

Howsie can see the future of our cricket better than anyone on this forum tbf.

Well look what you've done, now you've given him a big head (whether said in jest or not).

It was only once all of those 'well-spoken, looks a bit unco, but tries very hard' cricketers were banished that we started to cut the crap, started to be authentic to how this fun-loving, ponytail-pulling little nation really is.

Fair. However Elliott's agribusiness credentials are surely beyond reproach having scored actual real runs in WC finals.

Can appreciate that Brownlie probably fits under the 'well-spoken, looks a bit unco, but tries very hard' umbrella too tbh. Thus my hopes for him as opener are probably not going to come to much.

 

[Prince EWS]

I am not a fan of the Guppy at 6 rumblings. 3 at lowest please, and that'll never happen again.

No he shouldn't bat three either. The problem isn't that he'll perform worse if he bats down the order; it's that New Zealand usually have at least ten middle order batsmen better than their second best opener, so picking thee openers is absolutely ****ing stupid. It happens way too often for my liking.

 

[Bahnz]

Guptill has always been good enough to open our Test batting. Not because he is particularly good, but because high 20s, low 30s is genuinely going to be what we get from a Test opener.

Unlike Spudderford he isn't completely hopeless, once he sees off the new ball he can fill his boots better than anyone.

Nah, subtract his performances against Zimbang and Guptill has always been a low-mid 20's opener, and as such belongs in the same bin as How, Redmond, MacIntosh and every other no-hoper we've tried since Richardson retired.

And yeah, Guptill murdering overmatched domestic bowling lineups, and taking advantage of pathetic fielding (he was dropped twice during his 200) is hardly anything new. Kinda wish the coaching staff would stop befuddling him with dreams above his station and just leave him to be the awesome ODI batsman that he is.

In saying all that, I'm prepared to support giving him one more chance. Watling's stunning second coming has made me less pessimistic about the potential for our batsmen to turn things around in their late 20's. However, if and most likely when he fails, then it really must be time to call it quits on his test career for good.

 

[Athlai]

I reckon guptill would have bettered his stats marginally if kept in though.

 

[SteveNZ]

Nah, subtract his performances against Zimbang and Guptill has always been a low-mid 20's opener, and as such belongs in the same bin as How, Redmond, MacIntosh and every other no-hoper we've tried since Richardson retired.

And yeah, Guptill murdering overmatched domestic bowling lineups, and taking advantage of pathetic fielding (he was dropped twice during his 200) is hardly anything new. Kinda wish the coaching staff would stop befuddling him with dreams above his station and just leave him to be the awesome ODI batsman that he is.

In saying all that, I'm prepared to support giving him one more chance. Watling's stunning second coming has made me less pessimistic about the potential for our batsmen to turn things around in their late 20's. However, if and most likely when he fails, then it really must be time to call it quits on his test career for good.

Usually I'd be dirty on this sort of logic, but the drop at 1st slip was as easy as any chance gets.

I also don't think he's a top three Test batsman. Let him take Baz's spot at 5 when he's done, and have it for the next 4-5 years

 

[Kippax]

Fair. However Elliott's agribusiness credentials are surely beyond reproach having scored actual real runs in WC finals.

He was congratulated in parliament by the Green Party for those runs though. Agribusiness not impressed by his ideological wetness.

I want to make special mention of the “Hairy Javelin”, Grant Elliott, who compiled a superb innings of 84 not out, including hitting the winning six. I note that Grant and the Greens share a passion. I learnt from Twitter last night that his profile says that he is into energy efficiency and a green future. That makes me doubly proud, and I will quite happily buy him a coffee any day.

 

[Flem274*]

this isn't 2012 guys. guptill has done a lot of one on one work with Crowe and has been the most successful domestic opener since his dropping. he deserves one last extended chance.

 

[Hurricane]

He was congratulated in parliament by the Green Party for those runs though. Agribusiness not impressed by his ideological wetness.

Magnificent post

 

[Hurricane]

this isn't 2012 guys. guptill has done a lot of one on one work with Crowe and has been the most successful domestic opener since his dropping. he deserves one last extended chance.

His defensive system looks improved but not test match opener standard*. I basically word for word agree with what Bahnz said. Except for the part where he lumped him in with TMac. TMac had an average of 28. Martin's was 23 excludings minnows iirc,

*This standard is the highest out of any batting position.

 

[Flem274*]

T Mac is the most unlikely, ungainly, plain ugly yet extremely loveable nearly test class batsman.

His defensive system looks fine. Guptill's back foot defense issue was ironed out years ago - the list of the Fall of Guptill is as follows

-YOLO tests are ODIs Guptill
-Back foot defense non-existent Guptill
-Cut down on shots to reduce risks so he has no shots except risky straight drive Guptill
-No idea what he should do anymore so he just prods or lunges in general direction of ball with no technique or confidence Guptill

basically he was picked before he knew how to build a test innings and then he had far too many people in his ear. All he needed was a few domestic seasons to pile on the runs and iron out some minor technical issues. BJ Watling was a much crappier player in his first incarnation, Iain O'Brien took some time to figure it out and even T Mac went from the one big score a season Shield player to a very good domestic and almost good enough test opener.

Guptill has always been capable, he's just the perfect example of how NZC managed to wreck one of their most promising openers because of the frustration born from all the previous failures.

#teamguptill

 

[Athlai]

No he shouldn't bat three either. The problem isn't that he'll perform worse if he bats down the order; it's that New Zealand usually have at least ten middle order batsmen better than their second best opener, so picking thee openers is absolutely ****ing stupid. It happens way too often for my liking.

Yeah I wouldn't bat him at 3, was talking about him as a player not team balance.

 

[Hurricane]

T Mac is the most unlikely, ungainly, plain ugly yet extremely loveable nearly test class batsman.

His defensive system looks fine. Guptill's back foot defense issue was ironed out years ago - the list of the Fall of Guptill is as follows

Nice post but I disagree with the part in bold. We need an acronym for that by the way.

There is a big difference between having an ODI standard defence, a test match standard defence, and a test match opener standard defence. Being fine doesn't cut it.

 

[Hurricane]

That said I wish him well and he should go better than Rutherford.

 

[Bahnz]

Nice post but I disagree with the part in bold. We need an acronym for that by the way.

There is a big difference between having an ODI standard defence, a test match standard defence, and a test match opener standard defence. Being fine doesn't cut it.

Yeah, even during his big scores in the World Cup, a lot of Guptill's defensive shots resulted in thick edges through the area that would normally be packed with slips and gullys in a test match (his first ball against Dale Steyn in the semi-final was a classic case in point).

But yeah, wish him the best, and if nothing else his presence will mean the return of the all important LH/RH opening combo.

 

[Hurricane]

Yeah, even during his big scores in the World Cup, a lot of Guptill's defensive shots resulted in thick edges through the area that would normally be packed with slips and gullys in a test match (his first ball against Dale Steyn in the semi-final was a classic case in point).

But yeah, wish him the best, and if nothing else his presence will mean the return of the all important LH/RH opening combo.

Indeed. He also got cleaned bowled by Woakes playing a forward defensive stroke.

I still think it makes our team stronger to have him instead of Hamish. And if he can average around 30-32 this time he may get an extended run. I wish him all the best.

 

[SteveNZ]

His defensive system looks improved but not test match opener standard*. I basically word for word agree with what Bahnz said. Except for the part where he lumped him in with TMac. TMac had an average of 28. Martin's was 23 excludings minnows iirc,

*This standard is the highest out of any batting position.

It's a tough one. Is he the next best alternative, if you're giving Latham one spot? Given Brownlie isn't in the side, absolutely he is. Is he going to average 40? I hope so, but I wouldn't be laying anything down on it.

If he can average 30, great. I'd prefer to see him at 5 but Baz is there, and BJ can probably move up in future years to allow Neesh, Anderson and whoever else to clog up the middle order.

 

[Hurricane]

It's a tough one. Is he the next best alternative, if you're giving Latham one spot? Given Brownlie isn't in the side, absolutely he is. Is he going to average 40? I hope so, but I wouldn't be laying anything down on it.

If he can average 30, great. I'd prefer to see him at 5 but Baz is there, and BJ can probably move up in future years to allow Neesh, Anderson and whoever else to clog up the middle order.

Agree with all of this and like your post. However I wouldn't want to give him a middle order spot. He needs to make it or break it as an opener for two reasons.
1) We can't forever be having our batsman shy away from the opening position especially if they are an opener in the plunket shield. We need someone in there even if they would score more runs lower down the order. And by the way everyone would score more runs down the order. Opening is a treacherous business. From a cricinfo query. Openers average 5 runs less than the batsman in positions 3 to 5. Now there is some self selection bias in that stat given that the better batsman scam there way out of opening but there is also truth to it. I would carry on but I would be telling you things you already know.
2) He isn't attacking enough to be a 5 in a test match. I want my number 5 to bat with a SR of at least 55 and preferrably 60. Martin had a go at batting number 5 and he went right into his shell and batted with an SR of around 30 (exempting his 180 against Bangers and Mash). He will bat faster this time around, but he won't bat with an SR over 55 I predict. And there is good reason for that. His selection of shots he can play along the carpet is limited compared to more classy middle order batsman around the world. When I think of Martin scoring quickly in an ODI a lot of lofted shots come to mind that he will simply cut out of his test match play.
The reason why I want my number 5 to be attacking is just a set image I have in my mind for each position in the order. The Strike Rates I want to see from the batsman are as follows:

1 - Don't care even 30 is fine with me.
2 - Ditto
3 - a low SR early doors in his inning but about 50 by the time he scores his ton.
4 - 50
5 - 55-60 - he needs to be able to dominate an attack and score freely.
6 - 45 -50 (he can afford to be a bit slower as he needs to be a man for a crisis)
7 - Will take whatever I get.