***Official*** NatWest Series/Challenge

[tooextracool]

last 3 overs by Giles went for about 10. My point entirely was that you were looking at the match situation with the benefit of hindsight..

the thing though is that i knew it was wrong as soon as it happened, as did michael holding and ian botham(if that amounts to anything). i dont really think that you need hindsight to tell you that you bowl flintoff ahead of giles when you play on a seamer friendly wicket and/or are looking for wickets. as far as im concerned, what happened after that only backed my claim further.

It's one thing 'going for the kill', but it doesn't always work that way - ask Ricky Ponting. You probably applauded him for trying to blast England out - well, you ought to if there's any consistency about your argument, because it is almost exactly the same scenario, although one is trying to defend a hypothetical target, the other a real one..

that though is not what my argument is about. ponting went for the kill early yes, but the fact is that vaughan went for it a hell of a lot later than he should have. he wasted 2 whole overs from flintoff in the end, ponting on the other hand bowled his best bowlers completely and he did the right thing in his situation, because 1 wicket at the time when he brought lee on would have won them the game.

To suggest that keeping Giles on for 1 extra over (thus ensuring that Flintoff could only bowl 9) was Vaughan's biggest-ever mistake as captain strikes me as complete and utter hogwash. By all means criticise Vaughan for allowing Collingwood and Giles 16 overs between then instead of 10 (and in that you would be wrong too - would you have fancied another 6 overs of Gough and Jones the way they were taken apart?), but 16 instead of 15 is silly.

err its actually 2 extra overs(42 and 44) that giles bowled which in the context of the game was quite important. fact is that england should have gone for the kill around the 41st over, which was around the time when hogg came in. obviously i wouldnt have had jones bowl, but i would have had 4 from flintoff, 3 from harmison and 3 from gough.

 

[luckyeddie]

err its actually 2 extra overs(42 and 44) that giles bowled which in the context of the game was quite important. fact is that england should have gone for the kill around the 41st over, which was around the time when hogg came in. obviously i wouldnt have had jones bowl, but i would have had 4 from flintoff, 3 from harmison and 3 from gough.

Well, we're in poor shape, then. Batsmen who can't bat, bowlers who can't bowl and a captain who doesn't have a clue.

 

[Scaly piscine]

the kiwis came close at the Gabba but Australia but the aussies dominated the next 2 test.

Australia didn't dominate the next 2 Tests, Australia dominated the first Test, but set NZ a target which they were 10 runs away from getting when the overs ran out. NZ were on top for most of the third Test and set Australia a target of 440 and were 355-7 with more than 10 overs left to bowl but managed to hang on for the draw.

 

[tooextracool]

The ball he got from McGrath (admittedly a good'un) laid bare his tendency to not cover off-stump as well as other players. KP, same thing. Again, good bowling but certainly if there's one area where the Aussies will be targeting in the Test series against both players (if KP gets a start), it's there.

really?
so you think that playing at a widish delivery is a technical weakness? not to mention the fact that he only got out once in this series doing that, which is hardly exposing anything at all. even players with the best of techniques often play at balls that are too wide, dravid for example has done it about a million times. i'd think the fact that he looked fairly comfortable during that 44 in similar conditions would suggest that its not really a weakness at all, its more likely to be poor shot selection.

 

[luckyeddie]

really?
so you think that playing at a widish delivery is a technical weakness?

Only when Trescothick does it.

 

[tooextracool]

Well, that's the point. Not covering off-stump means you don't get your body behind the ball and end up playing the ball 'outside' of your body which makes it more difficult to avoid getting an edge. When that happenes, everything goes out of whack; suddenly the bat isn't played as straight, you're off-balance, etc. That's just what I observed in Flintoff last night and in KP on a few occasions. Get a guy who can bowl in the corridor moving it away and if you're not covering off-stump, it makes them that much more difficult to play.

im sorry what? how in the world can you get behind a ball that was fairly wide of off stump? the edge happened because he played at a good ball that was bowled down the wrong line, and the edge(or at least a play and miss) would have happened to any player who attempted to play at that ball.

 

[tooextracool]

Only when Trescothick does it.

except that he does it with his front foot at around mid stump, which is more likely to get you out against any ball going away from you.

 

[marc71178]

well Glenn McGrath played apropriatley for probably his last ODI innings.

So he's going to retire from ODI's immediately then?

 

[marc71178]

it shouldn't but his innings helped Australia get to a respectable score.

MOTM wouldn't concede that many runs.

 

[aussie]

MOTM wouldn't concede that many runs.

well dont lets agrue too much about it, Jones already has it

 

[marc71178]

My point was, Lee & Gillespie should be match fit and firing, they have been consistently playing - Kasprowicz has not. Gillespie had another poor match in the final, he can no longer be considered an 'automatic' pick for Australia's one day & test side.

With the Ashes coming up, I hope not!

 

[marc71178]

Hopefully, the selectors will pick all four seamers and Hogg in the NWC, and Hussey as the sub, giving all bowlers an opportunity to make their case.

And what if you bat first?

 

[aussie]

With the Ashes coming up, I hope not!

well i dont agree with Mr.Wright their, Dizzy has to automatic pick, he is too good a bowler not to have success at all on tour.

 

[tooextracool]

Flintoff - doesnt move his feet and, as such, is a sitting duck early in his innings against quality seam (McGrath) and ordinary spin (Hogg)..
As for yesterday, his dismissal was a carbon copy of how McGrath has undone people for the past 10 years. A number of delivery slanting into the batsman, flollowed by one that holds its' own. In summary - great bowling

really? quality seam?
bit strange then that mcgrath, not for one ball troubled him on his way to 44. in fact mcgrath didnt even manage to beat flintoff for a single ball during that innings. to say something based on one dismissal(and even that doesnt exactly back the claim) is quite ludicrous.

KP - if he is to be successful at test level, I guarantee that his technique will have to change significantly in the future.
Before the bowler delivers, he walks across to the off. After delivery, nothing.

i wouldnt go that far at all. as unconventional as his technique is, he did look fairly comfortable for all of the 9 balls that he batted before it, and i personally think that the 10th ball was a very good one, rather than poor technique or anything like that.

Any movement, whether seam, swing, or spin, has the potential to leave him leaden-footed and in his brief innings McGrath was already working on LBWs. Lee has also beaten him with pace a number of times in very few deliveries.

im sorry what? lee beat him for a whole 1 delivery. you really are exaggerating a fair bit. KP looked fairly good while he was at the crease, and when he did get out it was an excellent ball rather than a poor shot.

 

[marc71178]

if england were to win the ashes i can guarantee you that i'd be the first person here to be singing praises for all the england players and wouldnt even bother with the criticism.

No doubt Richard would be immediately on here saying how it was all luck and Harmison's 45 wickets at 12 was an anomaly!

 

[tooextracool]

Simon Jones.

Do I win 5 points?

thorpe actually.

 

[Scaly piscine]

No doubt Richard would be immediately on here saying how it was all luck and Harmison's 45 wickets at 12 was an anomaly!

Na motson is obviously the hide under a rock type from what we've seen over the last couple of weeks.

 

[tooextracool]

Well, we're in poor shape, then. Batsmen who can't bat, bowlers who can't bowl and a captain who doesn't have a clue.

i think we've got some excellent bowlers.
and as far as the captaincy is concerned, i think the reason why i suggested that it was the biggest mistake hes made as captain was because he hasnt made that many.

 

[tooextracool]

So he's going to retire from ODI's immediately then?

i think he was referring to the substitution rule.

 

[luckyeddie]

thorpe actually.

You know, I would never have guessed that was who you meant.