*Official* India Tour of England 2018

[Borges]

Ah! Rishab Pant. I know that he does not drop catches just for fun these days, but is he good enough to keep wickets in an international?

 

[SeamUp]

Strong England Lions team for the FC game vs India

Alastair Cook (Essex)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Nick Gubbins (Middlesex)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Dom Bess (Somerset)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Matthew Fisher (Yorkshire)
Jamie Porter (Essex)

 

[Borges]

We may also see some of the Indian test regulars who are not involved in the limited overs stuff (Vijay, Saha etc.) in this game.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Strong England Lions team for the FC game vs India

Alastair Cook (Essex)
Rory Burns (Surrey)
Nick Gubbins (Middlesex)
Dawid Malan (Middlesex)
Ollie Pope (Surrey)
Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
Sam Curran (Surrey)
Dom Bess (Somerset)
Jack Leach (Somerset)
Matthew Fisher (Yorkshire)
Jamie Porter (Essex)

Clever to give Cook a good look at India's bowlers. Bess would probably be a starter too one would think?

 

[garylyon]

I don't think just your wicketkeeping skills should warrant you a place in the side, though. Also from IPL I'm quite convinced that blokes like Pant and Rahul can keep decently in LO games (both kept to good spinners as well as fairly pacy bowlers). Dhoni simply isn't reliable anymore as a finisher. I can't trust Dhoni to hit those 50 off 30 and boost the total during the death like I can trust Pant even if the guy hasn't played a single ODI yet. I'm not saying Dhoni isn't scoring runs or is looking terribly out of form. He just can't score them quick enough and takes more than three overs before he even starts attempting to loft his shots. If he has to be in the team for the experience and keeping, he should ideally bat at 4 imo, but now that Rahul is introduced in the top order I guess no. 5 won't be so bad either, but no spot lower than that. Sending guys like Jadhav, Pandey or Raina in before him is plain ridiculous. Dhoni is finally looking like he can smash big scores if he's given time at the crease, so its incredibly stupid of Kohli to send him so low down the order when he already has hitters like Raina and Hardik.

 

[garylyon]

We may also see some of the Indian test regulars who are not involved in the limited overs stuff (Vijay, Saha etc.) in this game.

Pujara playing?

 

[garylyon]

Clever to give Cook a good look at India's bowlers. Bess would probably be a starter too one would think?

Wasn't he a replacement for Leach?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Wasn't he a replacement for Leach?

Yeah but Leach was **** and Bess was surprisingly competent. If it were up to me Ali would be the sole spinner but if they don't think he's up to the task, or conditions dictate another, then surely Bess is ahead of anyone else.

 

[Borges]

Pujara playing?

Don't know specifically who all could be playing; I'm just guessing based on what I'd heard. Ideally, Pujara should play and try to find some belated form.

 

[Jack1]

Yeah but Leach was **** and Bess was surprisingly competent. If it were up to me Ali would be the sole spinner but if they don't think he's up to the task, or conditions dictate another, then surely Bess is ahead of anyone else.

Leach is a good bowler, he's struggled a little since the change of action scrutiny. Still a good bowler. Bess is good bowler too and has the extra element of his batting. The problem is he's in the same mould as Moeen, whereas Leach more of a front-line spinner. Leach gives left arm variation too, depends what you are looking for who to pick and the make up of the rest of the side.

 

[Jack1]

Well I for one totally disagree with you John so I must be talking nonsense and out of my backside too.

I wont go as far as saying Joe Root is our best T20 batsmen (but seriously who gives a **** anyway?) But he is certainly in the conversation for ODI's......with only Bairstow as competition Imo (and I say that despite Buttlers ridiculous current form)

You need to understand Roots role in the odi side is very different to the rest of the line up. He hasnt got the license that the rest have, his job is to bat through and score big at a run a ball while the rest of the maniacs tee off at the other end.

Edit:

I really think you should adopt a less condescending tone when you're arguing an opinion and not state it is a fact.

Not really, I'm saying it as he is. Calling him the best batter full stop is a nonsense, considering we are talking about t20 here. It isn't condescending, it's just reality. It's condescending rubbish to call him England's best batter if you want to take that angle in reply to me making a t20 comment.

As for your comment about who gives a ****, you've posted 6,325 times and should know how a forum works. If no one gave a **** and didn't respond to anyone it wouldn't be a forum. That's literally the point of the site.

Root and the ODI side is a debatable thing and his value of it. But in t20 he's miles from England's best player and there's an argument for dropping him. Considering t20 is the topic here...it's the t20 series..calling him England's best batter is pure rubbish. Can see you're very upset by this. I'm certainly not, lol.

Just so you know I'm happy to come here and have sensible discussion. That's all I look for, I don't troll like many posters here do at times. But when someone replies to me talking about Root in t20 with "he's our best batter" I'm entitled to call him out as he's wasting his time and mine talking nonsense.

 

[Jack1]

Joe Root is a wonder ODI player, not just all his runs, but his handy bowling option as well. I don't see the value of dropping him in ODI to fit both Hales/Roy, I think Root adds more to an XI than playing both Hales and Roy.

1 Bairstow
2 Roy
3 Root 7
4 Morgan
5 Stokes 6
6 Buttler
7 Ali 5
8 Woakes 2
9 Willey 1
10 Plunkett 3
11 Rashid 4



Root provides far far too much value to the odi team to drop. He's an outstanding bat, good in the field, and bowls more than useful part-time.

Now I also believe that Jordan is back in the mix as the best for the T20i team. This effects team balance.

John's point re-t20i is a more interesting one though. As the case for including both Hales and Roy gets much stronger. Root was not sold at the IPL, Hales and Roy were. Doesn't prove anything, but it is indicative of a wider perception to their playing abilities. I personally would have bid on Joe Root at the bargain entry price.

Personally, I would stick with Root for the timebeing in t20i - Hales and Roy are both getting plenty of cricket at the moment to ready for the next WT20,

But what is Root's t20 role? We all get his odi role. England need to figure out what they want from Root in t20, and where best to bat him accordingly. Especially with Buttler opening now.

John's opinion re Root in t20 isn't as bad it sounds at first blush to many. As Buttler has moved up, Bairstow has moved down, Root is beginning to stick out like a sore thumb (and Morgan is the captain), batting ahead of Hales and Bairstow. Root is great for difficult pitches, and will do this role well at 3. But on flat decks, what is he good for? And does he have a problem with googlies? Because those are becoming very common in t20 teams, not just India.

The England t20 team do need to think of Root's t20 role in the playing XI. Because having Hales at 4 and Bairstow at 6 with Root at 3 playing anchor doesn't seem to make the most sense in t20. Root in T20 is in danger of becoming like JP Duminy, just not really fitting in all that often, but there in case of emergencies. But because of cricketers like D Miller, it made sense, but where do you bat them? Up top, you're giving less balls to the strikers, down low, they're not the best to 6's in the final overs.

Root needs to play with the same verve and vigour in t20 he showed at the WT20 to make a spot secure in the top 3. I think Root can do it. He has done it in the past. And he need only look KW in the IPL to see what's possible with batting talent in t20.

But Hales, Roy, Bairstow and Buttler with Morgan are definitely putting Root under some selection pressure.

Root is good in Odis and great in tests. As you seem to have realised, being a sensible well-balanced poster..my comment was about t20 and his reply that Root is England's best batter is rubbish to be honest (and he surely must know it). You have created a good balanced post here with thought, unlike the others I have seen.

Wherever Root bats for us in t20 he's a problem. He can't open as he can't make use of the PP like Roy, Buttler, Bairstow or Hales. Hales is a better 3, Morgan a better middle order hitter from 4-5. And when you get to 5 in t20 you want power players like Bairstow/Buttler (one can open and the other comes 5-6). As for tests (obviously) and ODIs, I'd have him in the team as I've mentioned on other posts I've already made. Root is a good option to anchor the innings in an ODI if needed for me, depending on the opponent. There isn't a real need for an anchor in t20 anymore, that's why Root is struggling right now however he approaches his innings's in t20 cricket. It's also why Kohli's innings was arguably bad yesterday in my view, it was an excessive anchor and sold India short.

On a flat deck Root could bat normally and score quickly for him in the past in t20 when in form, probably is right now he's completely out of nick in limited overs cricket. We also need to realise that now England's aim is much higher than it was then. Root is expected to come in and score at a quicker rate no matter what the situation and he's struggling with it mentally and skill wise. An obvious issue is can't get his SR up in a few balls with some sixes like a player like Hales and can't be a finisher as he can't hit big when required.

In tests Root is by far England's best player, it's literally not even close. But in t20 he's a glaring weakness. For me Roy, Buttler, Hales, Bairstow, Morgan are nailed on picks in t20 cricket right now based on a combination of form and career stats. If Stokes comes back and can bowl he must replace Root. If Stokes can't bowl then Root plays over Stokes that's for sure, Stokes has awful career t20I stats..but he brings some more balance if he can bowl and is a good fielder..Stokes's batting has been improving in the other two formats as well and he just hit a 90 not out (albeit in a heavy loss) for Durham.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Not really, I'm saying it as he is. Calling him the best batter full stop is a nonsense, considering we are talking about t20 here. It isn't condescending, it's just reality. It's condescending rubbish to call him England's best batter if you want to take that angle in reply to me making a t20 comment.

As for your comment about who gives a ****, you've posted 6,325 times and should know how a forum works. If no one gave a **** and didn't respond to anyone it wouldn't be a forum. That's literally the point of the site.

Root and the ODI side is a debatable thing and his value of it. But in t20 he's miles from England's best player and there's an argument for dropping him. Considering t20 is the topic here...it's the t20 series..calling him England's best batter is pure rubbish. Can see you're very upset by this. I'm certainly not, lol.

No it's not. He's one of the best ODI players in the world. Not every game will be on a road against club bowlers where Roy, Hales and co. can just slog through the line and make 350+ with ease.

Root averages 50 in ODIs at a SR of 86 lol. The only Englishman close to him in ODIs is Bairstow.

 

[Jack1]

No it's not. He's one of the best ODI players in the world. Not every game will be on a road against club bowlers where Roy, Hales and co. can just slog through the line and make 350+ with ease.

Root averages 50 in ODIs at a SR of 86 lol. The only Englishman close to him in ODIs is Bairstow.

SR of 86 isn't ideal when you are posting ~400 or 400+ on the regular and bat down to 11. England are disappointed with 300 these days. You need to view it in the context of the era and the England team. This isn't Bangladesh we are talking about (no offence to Bangladesh).

Buttler is averaging over 40 with almost a 120 SR in ODIs, he's more valuable than Root. So is Bairstow. The rest you can debate, but when you bat to 11 (or at least 10, depends on the team we pick) then SR of 86 isn't great at all. I think you are obsessing over average here. SR is most important now in limited overs, especially when you bat all the way down. Root would still get in my ODI team (I posted my strongest possible England team after the ODI series with Aus and Root was in it still), that wasn't the debate. But he does need to improve in ODIs, his SR needs to be higher even for the anchor role.

 

[TheJediBrah]

SR of 86 isn't ideal when you are posting ~400 or 400+ on the regular and bat down to 11. England are disappointed with 300 these days. You need to view it in the context of the era and the England team. This isn't Bangladesh we are talking about (no offence to Bangladesh).

Buttler is averaging over 40 with almost a 120 SR in ODIs, he's more valuable than Root. So is Bairstow. The rest you can debate, but when you bat to 11 (or at least 10, depends on the team we pick) then SR of 86 isn't great at all. I think you are obsessing over average here. SR is most important now in limited overs, especially when you bat all the way down. Root would still get in my ODI team (I posted my strongest possible England team after the ODI series with Aus and Root was in it still), that wasn't the debate. But he does need to improve in ODIs, his SR needs to be higher even for the anchor role.

. . .

No it's not. He's one of the best ODI players in the world. Not every game will be on a road against club bowlers where Roy, Hales and co. can just slog through the line and make 350+ with ease.

Root averages 50 in ODIs at a SR of 86 lol. The only Englishman close to him in ODIs is Bairstow.

You know there are different conditions around and that not every game will be on a road right? And that there are good bowlers around, unlike what Australia served up?

 

[Jack1]

. . .



You know there are different conditions around and that not every game will be on a road right?

Not relevant in a t20. 20 overs to play with. England bat all the way down.

As for ODIs, what is your point? Root is in my team already. Buttler and Bairstow are better ODI players than Root across all conditions.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Not relevant in a t20. 20 overs to play with. England bat all the way down.

As for ODIs, what is your point? Root is in my team already. Buttler and Bairstow are better ODI players than Root across all conditions.

England when fit in odi do, Willey is normally around 9 after Woakes at 8, but yesterday in t20 Willey was at 7, and to be honest, looked a bit high in the batting order.

Part of this is Jordan, part was Ali dropped for Ball.

England doesn't have spare all-rounders to replace Stokes, Woakes, and Ali with. The young Currans, Sam and Tom are not cutting the mustard, as yet. So whenever the former 3 are out, the team balance does change.

I like the topics of your posts by the way. Your posts reveal independent thinking and I appreciate it.

There were some very very tricky pitches in the Indian side of the draw last WT20, but I don't think Australia will serve up anything less than flat decks.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Not relevant in a t20. 20 overs to play with. England bat all the way down.

As for ODIs, what is your point? Root is in my team already. Buttler and Bairstow are better ODI players than Root across all conditions.

My point? It's exactly what I said it was. You said Root's value in ODIs is debatable. I disagreed. I was never referring to T20s which was quite clear.

 

[Jack1]

My point? It's exactly what I said it was. You said Root's value in ODIs is debatable. I disagreed. I was never referring to T20s which was quite clear.

I meant debatable what his value is compared to the others, not whether or not he should be in the side (Odis). On an absolute flat deck though in ODIs he could be dropped when England bat so low down, especially against weaker bowling attacks.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I meant debatable what his value is compared to the others, not whether or not he should be in the side (Odis). On an absolute flat deck though in ODIs he could be dropped when England bat so low down, especially against weaker bowling attacks.

Joe's not the worst on flat decks in ODI against a stronger attack:

4th ODI, England tour of Australia and New Zealand at Dunedin, Mar 7 2018 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo