***Official*** India in Pakistan

[yohanna]

I have always maintained that a subcontinental cricketer with EARLY experience of playing in the English county season should be a more complete cricketer than if he learnt all his early cricket at home. Unfortunately the number of first class games in the county game have reduced with increased number of one dayers (which are still better than one dayers at home), the quality of the game has declined and not many Indian and Pakistani batsmen are getting EARLY grounding in England.

You sounds like Imran Khan, i think i heard him say this a dozen of time only to get into trouble from the likes of Zaheer Abbas.

Interestingly Zaheer Abbas, himself had benefitted alot from his playing experiance in English counties, when never really wanted to admit that for some reason.

 

[Arumpnoo]

I am trying to reply to many posts so nothing in quotes. First, like many other posters on this forum I don't believe that Pakistani batting is weak. It is just one odi series and you simply can't judge a batting line up based on 4 odis. Well to be precise, on 3 odis. All batsman get a bad patch. Tendulkar didn't fire in the test series, so what does it mean that he is not a world class player. Butt made century in the first odi, Shoaib Malik is so far the highest scorer of the series, Akmal showed us his batting skills in the test match and his century is rated amongst the best. Inzi, Yousif, and Younis are all seasoned companiers. Afridi didn't play in more than few matches and Razzaq is doing what he always does: pitches around with the bat or ball. So I don't know why this whole mumbo jumbo of weaker batting line up is coming around. As far as batting order is concerned, yes they could have done things differently but if a batsman is not in form than how will it matter? So all the talk I think, I can phrase in "Victory has many fathers while defeat is orphan".

I am not saying you should not learn anything from this series, but if you are learning that you got benign batting line up than that is a wrong lesson to learn. Though I agree we should give more match practice to our openers and should stop shuffling them around every series. Butt and Afridi look good to me as openers with Malik to follow and than by Inzi or Yousif. I do think that Akmal needs more time to mature and develope his temperament towards batting. The guy scored 7 centuries this year alone, so no question, he got the goods. About his temperament, he got out three times in the odis trying to square cut the ball. Twice he did it beautifully but only towards the fielder. So he can improve on this temperament. Butt, again got out thrice in the same fashion but I think he is maturing very quickly. Last year, I saw him getting out many times playing a sweep shot to spinners but this year he has improved his footwork during the sweep shot and doesn't pre-meditate it.

One of the posters post a good point, all of Pakistani openers are front foot players and I totally agree (Imran, Yasir, and Farhat all are front foot players). While playing on the front foot is not a bad thing at all if you can play your defensive shots with soft hands. Butt got out because he was coming strong on the ball even during his defensive shots and does not position his head above his bat. His head was always behind the bat, but all said I believe he will do good at opener position if he is given a good chance.

Pakistan won 4-2 on Indian grounds and winning four in a trot after lossing first 2 games. Won 3-0 against West Indies on their home ground after posting first game score of 170. Won 3-2 against England even after lossing the first odi. So I don't agree to the non-sense that they will be realy good if they play away from home. They have already done it in last one year. Bob Wolmer himself said that the team is on progression path and it hasn't reached its final destination.

Bottom line is I don't think that there is much need to make any radical changes in the batting line up. Yes, fielding is another thing and Wolmer accepted it himself saying that they will work on it. Also, PCB needs to do more regarding conditions of grounds and pitches. Pakistan need more training in preparing different kinds of pitches and needs to do more about hard grounds in the Pakistani stadiums. PCB said that it is going to work towards it and I hope that they will start working on it soon. It will help Pakistan in physical fitness (less injuries surely) and ground fielding. Bowling attack is real good. Shoaib is the senior patner and since his come back he has been a real team player. His experience and fire is key element to Pakistan balling. On the side note that he chucks, it is ICC decision and he is already tested by experts and cleared by saying that he never had any suspicous action according to ICC rules. Now if ICC wants to change the rules than I think it should consider all the member nations and specify the rules as transparent as they can. The rules right now are very vague. Coming back to Pakistani bowling, I think it is bad idea to shell Sami because of bad patches. Pakistan has invested so much in him and I think some good coaching lessons will realy help him. He is experienced bowler and I have faith that he can do good. Rana again has the potential but needs to catch up fast. In both the cases I can not understand why doesn't the PCB hire Wasem or Waqar as bowling coaches.

Anyways, the last thing I would like to add is that I am not talking anything away from India. Well played India and congras to all the Indian fans. Please pardon my spelling as I write in a flow and most of the time hate to do proof reading and sorry for the long post as well. Can anyone tell me what is the right spelling, is it balling or bowling. LOL.

 

[SJS]

Interestingly Zaheer Abbas, himself had benefitted alot from his playing experiance in English counties, when never really wanted to admit that for some reason.

There is a tendency in the sub continent to underplay the role of anything English or white in our development. It is our way of saying we are not slaves any more. We are the only people who make such a big deal of having a foreign coach even when it is clearly doing us some good. Zaheer is no exception though a truly great batsman. Imran does not suffer from any such complexes

I think the Pakistani batting line up of the 70's and 80's was classier (at least in depth) than even India's current batting side.

In Majid Khan, Zaheer Abbas and Miandad they had batsmen who would be on anybody's world XI. Today we can say that of only Inzamam. In addition, they had Mudassar, Mohsin and Asif Iqbal who would walk into today's Pakistan side like superstars.

Then there were all rounders of the class of Imran, Mushtaq and Intekhab Alam who would play for any side in the world today. Imran perhaps in most all time world XI's.

Look at them as batsmen and you realise the difference in class of today. I have seen all of them bat and we had come to hate them believe me but they were so bloody good, its not funny.

These were all batsmen who honed their skills in the county circuit. Whenever we discussed why Pakistani cricketers were so much better than Indians in crucnh situations, why they were better professionals, this was always the conclusion. Indians did not play in England barring a couple like Bedi and Gavaskar who too went their when they were super-super stars.

Indians went to England to play in the minor leagues. Pakistani players also started with the leagues but once the majid Khans started off in the university and then graduated to the county circuit, they always kept recommending young talent from back home. There was a time when almost every county side had one Paksitani and one West Indian playing for them. No wonder, these two sides dominated cricket in those years. Pakistan would have done even better but for their internal politics.

 

[yohanna]

Can anyone tell me what is the right spelling, is it balling or bowling. LOL.

Its bowling. "balling" is a bit naughty word!!

 

[SJS]

Anyways, the last thing I would like to add is that I am not talking anything away from India. Well played India and congras to all the Indian fans.

Hi,

1) The implication is NOT that Pakistani batsmen are not good. Far from it. There talent and class is there to see. Its the way to manage and harness this abundance of talent and to iron out the weaknesses thats being discussed. Sachin for example has a terrible problem with his square cutting. He keeps cutting under the ball. Its a bad habit picked up in the limited over game but it makes him vulnerable if the ball does go within catching distance of the fielder. He wasnt like that when he started. So this is not criticism for the sake of it.

2) India has an equally great problem at the opening slot as Pakistan (in tests). The point is what to do about it. Since we were discussing Pakistani batting line up its their batsmen that got discussed. One could right equally emphatically about the pronblems with Gambhir for example.

Lets assume for a minute that the players were exchanged and one had the great Pakistani talent as Indian players. I would be delighted let me tell you. For there is so much material to work with but what I wouldnt do is let them do what they wanted or not make any changes just because the talent was there !

Take Afridi. Miandad continues harping on Afridi must open. Others are equally emphatic that he shouldnt. The jury is still out on Malik. If they are taking a rest its because he has scored of late. These decisions are not based on 2 or 3 innings as you rightly point out. A couple of failures at the top dont make Sachin a bad player for that position but nor do a few innings of 90 or 100 make a person ideally suited for that. Dravid's stand of 400 with Sehwag hasnt made us send him to open for kingdom come.

In India and in Pakistan we all have ex cricketers playing favourites, thus we have Imran rooting for sami in the team and Younis at number three and Rameez shouting for Malik and Rana. The moment a player scores or fails his supporters or detractors jump up screaming "I told you so".

If this was the only way to settle arguments in cricket, they woud NEVER get settled for no one scores for ever and no one (not even Agarkar fails for ever) The point is who and what type of a player stands a better chance of success at which position and that applies to all teams not just to Pakistan.

Thats all I have to say. It is an objective discussion not fault finding.

 

[Arumpnoo]

Hi,

1) The implication is NOT that Pakistani batsmen are not good. Far from it. There talent and class is there to see. Its the way to manage and harness this abundance of talent and to iron out the weaknesses thats being discussed. Sachin for example has a terrible problem with his square cutting. He keeps cutting under the ball. Its a bad habit picked up in the limited over game but it makes him vulnerable if the ball does go within catching distance of the fielder. He wasnt like that when he started. So this is not criticism for the sake of it.

2) India has an equally great problem at the opening slot as Pakistan (in tests). The point is what to do about it. Since we were discussing Pakistani batting line up its their batsmen that got discussed. One could right equally emphatically about the pronblems with Gambhir for example.

Lets assume for a minute that the players were exchanged and one had the great Pakistani talent as Indian players. I would be delighted let me tell you. For there is so much material to work with but what I wouldnt do is let them do what they wanted or not make any changes just because the talent was there !

Take Afridi. Miandad continues harping on Afridi must open. Others are equally emphatic that he shouldnt. The jury is still out on Malik. If they are taking a rest its because he has scored of late. These decisions are not based on 2 or 3 innings as you rightly point out. A couple of failures at the top dont make Sachin a bad player for that position but nor do a few innings of 90 or 100 make a person ideally suited for that. Dravid's stand of 400 with Sehwag hasnt made us send him to open for kingdom come.

In India and in Pakistan we all have ex cricketers playing favourites, thus we have Imran rooting for sami in the team and Younis at number three and Rameez shouting for Malik and Rana. The moment a player scores or fails his supporters or detractors jump up screaming "I told you so".

If this was the only way to settle arguments in cricket, they woud NEVER get settled for no one scores for ever and no one (not even Agarkar fails for ever) The point is who and what type of a player stands a better chance of success at which position and that applies to all teams not just to Pakistan.

Thats all I have to say. It is an objective discussion not fault finding.

I appreciate your comments and I agree with almost all that you have said. I just went back and read your previous few posts, good work man. Seems like you know something about cricket. On side note, I just talk about Pakistan team because don't want to be objective with Indian team, scared of posters around here.

Anyways I didn't take anything personal from your post before writing as just skimmed through most of the posts. I totally agree that most of the Pakistani youngsters are coming as front foot players. But my point is that it is not such a bad thing. Yes I would love to see few back foot players. Inzi rocks back real good and Yousif wait for eternity to play the ball when on the back foot. Both of them are classy and thats about it. No one else in Pakistani team plays on back foot. Though I believe Butt is the fast learner and will learn fast to rock back on the back foot. I remember during last Indian tour he was predominentaly played through covers, now he flicks real good from his pads to the leg side. Kamran Akmal plays only on front foot and Shoaib, man he got such a good eye hand coordination but his footwork sucks. Younis Khan, don't know how but developed this habbit of getting his front foot way across his off stump and that sucks as well.

Well my point is, to cover the swing either you take your foot out with a long stride to pick the ball near its pitch or stay back and try to play it as late as possible. In my opinion you need to do both if you want to survive swing bowling depending upon where the bowler is pitching. Regarding, players favourtism, I totally agree. About foreign coaches, I think more of a problem in Pakistan camp is that ex cricketers believe that they get no jobs as most of jobs go to foreigners. Indian whole cricket brain tank is Australian. I agree to their point but the problem is that it is not necessary that good players can turn into good coaches. I believe Wolmer is doing an exceptional job.

I don't say that let players do as they deem fit but I think that they should develop over their natural skills. Like Afridi, you need to use him in what he is good at. If you can afford a batsman who is high risk taker and sometimes pay back in single handedly winning matches than play him. Javed tried to slow him down and Afridi messed up during hsi coaching. Wolmer and Inzi gives him a license to thrill and he is playing real well during last few years. But Pakistani camp needs to realise that it would put lot of responsibilty on other baters so they need to realize it and don't come out all fists swinging. Like I can not comprehend what is wrong with Yousif. He was so cool and realy knew how to build up his inning. From the start of English tour he comes out all guns blazing, don't know why?

Anyways, thanks for your reply.

 

[yohanna]

Butt and Afridi look good to me as openers with Malik to follow and than by Inzi or Yousif. I do think that Akmal needs more time to mature and develope his temperament towards batting

And where is younis going to bat?? down the order Younis is practically wated.

I would say that Pak should open with Butt and Malik, Younis should come one down and then it should be Inzi and yousuf.

 

[adharcric]

Here's what I think. Butt will definitely open. Akmal has the temperament to bat anywhere in the lineup. Malik can build an innings and accelerate as well. Inzamam is the best so he needs to come at 3 or 4. Younis is a bit like Pakistan's version of Kaif, good accumulator but wasted down the order, he should come in early. Yousuf needs to play to his potential and he can come at 4, 5 or even 6 if need be. Afridi is an exciting prospect as an opener but he'll always be volatile and his early wicket might trigger a collapse. He can do plenty of damage late in the innings when the bowlers are all tired. I'm also a fan of Imran Farhat but he doesn't play very responsibly. Asim Kamal is a grinder but I don't see him getting a chance.

Butt, Akmal, Younis, Inzamam, Yousuf, Malik, Afridi, Razzaq, Sami/Gul/Rana, Akhtar, Asif
or
Butt, Younis, Malik, Inzamam, Yousuf, Afridi, Akmal, Razzaq, Sami/Gul/Rana, Akhtar, Asif

Either way, looks a solid side to me.

 

[Arumpnoo]

And where is younis going to bat?? down the order Younis is practically wated.

I would say that Pak should open with Butt and Malik, Younis should come one down and then it should be Inzi and yousuf.

Younis should be dropped from the team. Nah man just kidding. Afridi as an opener and even with Shoaib to come there is much of a chance that who ever will come second down might come soon on the crease. It can be Younis, Inzi, or Yousif with a role of holding one side while others can play around him. I was writing in general terms and wasn't giving exact batting order. I don't think Malik can be good opener specially in one days but lets see what team management decides. Though it is true, that Malik almost never gives a catch in the slips. Malik coming one down or opener will depend upon his batting form.

 

[marc71178]

I think team India is right up there with Australia.After annihilating Pakistan on their own home ground team India has proved that they are the best in the world and they are a force to reckon with.

So when did India last win a Test series outside the subcontinent?

 

[marc71178]

Fact is that India has made rapid progress in OD cricket, before this series they destroyed SL and it must be near a world record as it has already successfully chased a target 12 consecutive times!!!

Even England have done 13 in recent times.

 

[adharcric]

Even England have done 13 in recent times.

Just a suggestion, don't waste your time.

 

[marc71178]

LOL That's genius.

Their user title under their name should read "Troll - Don't read my posts."

Unfortunately only those with huge post counts get custom usernames...

 

[marc71178]

Are you referring to India and Pakistan or us and the trolls?

A power greater than all 3 combined...

The almighty one.

 

[adharcric]

A power greater than all 3 combined...

The almighty one.

Just wondering, what will you do when the Almighty is dropped from the test team very soon. Is asking such a question pure blasphemy?

 

[ajaagarkarajaaja]

I think Pakistan should try new guys in the next games, guys that are normally not considered ideal for OD games.The result of the match is of lil importance, so there won't be much harm in trying out a couple of new fellows.

I would like to see following team play the match.

Yasir Hameed/Mohd hafeez
Younis Khan
Asim Kamal
Inzi
Malik
Razzak
Akmal
Sami
Rao
Asif
Yasir/Mansoor Amjad

SS: Faisal Iqbal.

Butt,Rana,Yousuf, Arshad should all be rested.

 

[marc71178]

Just wondering, what will you do when the Almighty is dropped from the test team very soon.

The only reason he is left out of the side (and AA is never dropped) is because the selectors want to make it fairer on the opposition.

 

[danish]

Here's what I think. Butt will definitely open. Akmal has the temperament to bat anywhere in the lineup. Malik can build an innings and accelerate as well. Inzamam is the best so he needs to come at 3 or 4. Younis is a bit like Pakistan's version of Kaif, good accumulator but wasted down the order, he should come in early. Yousuf needs to play to his potential and he can come at 4, 5 or even 6 if need be. Afridi is an exciting prospect as an opener but he'll always be volatile and his early wicket might trigger a collapse. He can do plenty of damage late in the innings when the bowlers are all tired. I'm also a fan of Imran Farhat but he doesn't play very responsibly. Asim Kamal is a grinder but I don't see him getting a chance.

Butt, Akmal, Younis, Inzamam, Yousuf, Malik, Afridi, Razzaq, Sami/Gul/Rana, Akhtar, Asif
or
Butt, Younis, Malik, Inzamam, Yousuf, Afridi, Akmal, Razzaq, Sami/Gul/Rana, Akhtar, Asif

Either way, looks a solid side to me.

The batting order is a pleasant, but huge dilemma for the Pakistani team management. Never in recent times has Pakistan had such an abundance of good recognised batsmen. I notice that no one here has suggested dropping one of the batsmen in place of a specialist bowler, particularly a spinner. I know it would be a big waste of batting talent, but surely isn't batting someone like Younis Khan or Shoaib Malik so low down the order a waste of their talents. Having a sixth bowler would be a big boost for the bowling attack and it would give Inzamam another bowling option, possibly a spinner. However, a major flaw with this strategy is that, apart from wasting the talents of Shoaib Malik or Younis Khan (being the least likely batsmen to drop), it would decrease the depth of the batting order putting more pressure on the top order.

 

[danish]

I think Pakistan should try new guys in the next games, guys that are normally not considered ideal for OD games.The result of the match is of lil importance, so there won't be much harm in trying out a couple of new fellows.

I would like to see following team play the match.

Yasir Hameed/Mohd hafeez
Younis Khan
Asim Kamal
Inzi
Malik
Razzak
Akmal
Sami
Rao
Asif
Yasir/Mansoor Amjad

SS: Faisal Iqbal.

Butt,Rana,Yousuf, Arshad should all be rested.

I think the selectors should concentrate on getting the current squad back into form after their recent disappointing performance. A low pressure match like this will be ideal for players like Salman Butt to rediscover their form.

 

[immyakhtar]

I think the selectors should concentrate on getting the current squad back into form after their recent disappointing performance. A low pressure match like this will be ideal for players like Salman Butt to rediscover their form.

I don't agree with you Danish. Pakistan should try some new playes and see how they perform. Because even if we win this match, we wont really gain anything. Salman Butt has plenty of time to rediscover some lost form, so Pakisatn sould try out Mohammad Hafeez who opens the batting and is an amazing fielder