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***Official*** India in Pakistan

NavjotSidhu

Cricket Spectator
TT Boy said:
Don't worry when England are giving India a hiding next month, Nehra and his brothers will be long gone. :happy:
Its gonna be the other way round, England are gonna take one hell of a beating both in the tests and one dayers.
 

Fusion

Global Moderator
NavjotSidhu said:
Its gonna be the other way round, England are gonna take one hell of a beating both in the tests and one dayers.

shouldn't you say that using a rhyme of some sort Sidhu?? :)
 

DesithrillDotCo

Cricket Spectator
India played well

4rth Oneday match at Multan against Pakistan India played excelent. They made zero mistakes and it was well planned i give the credit to capton and coach.then others. Me being Pakistani would like to see Pakistan win in Karachi.
 
danish said:
Are you illiterate or just stupid? How many times must the good people at the University of Western Australia announce that Shoaib's action is perfectly legal? Or do you believe the idiotic opinions of 'respected' past players such as Bishan Singh Bedi?

I'm sorry to hurt ur feelings but the fact is that Akhtar chucks, and soon he will be in trouble.Its not just about Bedi, Greg Chappel has also questioned his action, fact is that ICC made a terrible mistake by allowing him to play cricket with that action.

Hopefully Akhtar will get a longer ban and will then spend the rest of his life with Shabbir.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Arumpnoo said:
Man there is no shortage of emotional fools on both sides and trust me I have seen it on BBC Cric forum. They shut down the south asian forum because of this crap. So my advise to you, let it go. Most of them you don't see when their teams lose a game and to be honest, what are there contribution to an Indian (or Pakistani) win? Nothing, yet they celebrate at a single win as if they have in person won the world cup. LOL. Anyways, to talk to an ignorant is like rewarding him for his ignorance. Cricket is just a game, some you win and some you lose. .
:notworthy
:thumbup:
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Impossible to change a word here !!
(I added a couple in bold and italics to keep it neutral as the rest of this post so obviously is in letter and spirit)

PS : Why dont you guys use the "Ignore Posts from so-and-so" facility. It is the best way to handle trolls and some other minor and major irritants. I have been using it for a year almost and it works great.......and scrolling through the threads is faster :)
 
Last edited:

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
danish said:
Ages of the full strength ODI teams of Pakistan and India:

Kamran Akmal- 24
Salman Butt- 21
Younis Khan- 28
Mohammad Yousuf- 31
Inzamam ul Haq- 35
Shoaib Malik- 24
Shahid Afridi- 25
Abdul Razzaq- 26
Shoaib Akhtar- 30
Mohammad Asif- 23
Umar Gul- 21

Virender Sehwag- 27
Sachin Tendulkar- 32
Rahul Dravid- 33
Yuvraj Singh- 24
Mohammad Kaif- 25
Mahendra Dhoni- 24
Irfan Pathan- 21
Anil Kumble- 35
Suresh Raina- 19
Rudra Pratap Singh- 20
Shantha Sreesanth- 23

Average age of Pakistani team= 26
Average age of Indian team= 26
I agree with the drift of your post and the point you are trying to make. A minor point is that Kumble is not a regular member of the Indian ODI team, hasnt been for almost two years now and is unlikely to be in the future.

I think Pakistan has plenty of youngsters and they have been blooded too. But by and large these hugely talented youngsters from the amazingly vast and unending reservoir of fresh talent in Pakistan seem to lack maturity a bit more than the Indian youngsters - not talent.

One can only try to speculate on the reasons for the same.

- One could be the lack of a well structrured domestic first class circuit in Pakistan. In India the Ranji Trophy (both limited and one day version), the Duleep Trophy, Irani Trophy etc for seniors, Rohinton Baria Trophy for schools, the college version escapes my tongue just now, Deodhar Trophy for limited overs, the various junior age groups, and the local leagues make for a vast network through which one needs to graduate and competition is tough with good performances galore. I think Indian juniors though not more talented than their Pakistani counterparts, tend to be a bit more sobered by their way up and it shows.

- I also feel the Indian setup, rightly or wrongly, does not push a young debutant into a position of major responsibility till he has served a kind of an apprenticeship during which he matures. Kaif and Yuvraj are examples from recent crops but even the prodigiously talented Sachin Tendulkar was nurtured and batted at number six and seven in tests for 25 months (November 1989 to December 1991) before finally being promoted to number four. The seniors, some of them not fit enough to hold a candle to him took on the responsibility. I can understand that you cant do this with openers but where you can you must.

- In the opening slot India has by and large supported a technically proficient and strong backfoot player. Sehwag is a bit different but even he is fairly strong off the backfoot but yet he is an exception. Thus even though India have struggled with openers they have continued to look for solidity (I am talking tests here) at the top slots and thus we have the Chopras, the Das's, the Bangars of recent times and the feeling that you need to be a Dravid to be a makeshift opener.

The point here is not how successful these openers were (I have admitted that India have struggled to find them) but the approach towards opening the innings. Pakistan seems to favour the beautiful front foot players who love moving the left leg out and driving handsomely through the covers. Almost all the youngsters one has seen in last 3-4 years have looked great driving off the front foot particularly through the off side. They seem to be all made in the same mould and coached by the same guy ! But you hardly see any one who is predominantly a backfoot player and will go back to defend if he cant go forward to drive a half volley. Again this is a tendency and I know there may be exceptions.

You combine all these and you have the recipe, not for disaster but for an inconsistent batting performance - swaying between incandescent strokeplay when the going is good and utterly inept performance in a crisis.

This is Pakistans problem with batting today and this is where Woolmer and Inzy's batting order strategies have made matters worse.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
SJS said:
I agree with the drift of your post and the point you are trying to make. A minor point is that Kumble is not a regular member of the Indian ODI team, hasnt been for almost two years now and is unlikely to be in the future.

I think Pakistan has plenty of youngsters and they have been blooded too. But by and large these hugely talented youngsters from the amazingly vast and unending reservoir of fresh talent in Pakistan seem to lack maturity a bit more than the Indian youngsters - not talent.

One can only try to speculate on the reasons for the same.

- One could be the lack of a well structrured domestic first class circuit in Pakistan. In India the Ranji Trophy (both limited and one day version), the Duleep Trophy, Irani Trophy etc for seniors, Rohinton Baria Trophy for schools, the college version escapes my tongue just now, Deodhar Trophy for limited overs, the various junior age groups, and the local leagues make for a vast network through which one needs to graduate and competition is tough with good performances galore. I think Indian juniors though not more talented than their Pakistani counterparts, tend to be a bit more sobered by their way up and it shows.

- I also feel the Indian setup, rightly or wrongly, does not push a young debutant into a position of major responsibility till he has served a kind of an apprenticeship during which he matures. Kaif and Yuvraj are examples from recent crops but even the prodigiously talented Sachin Tendulkar was nurtured and batted at number six and seven in tests for 25 months (November 1989 to December 1991) before finally being promoted to number four. The seniors, some of them not fit enough to hold a candle to him took on the responsibility. I can understand that you cant do this with openers but where you can you must.

- In the opening slot India has by and large supported a technically proficient and strong backfoot player. Sehwag is a bit different but even he is fairly strong off the backfoot but yet he is an exception. Thus even though India have struggled with openers they have continued to look for solidity (I am talking tests here) at the top slots and thus we have the Chopras, the Das's, the Bangars of recent times and the feeling that you need to be a Dravid to be a makeshift opener.

The point here is not how successful these openers were (I have admitted that India have struggled to find them) but the approach towards opening the innings. Pakistan seems to favour the beautiful front foot players who love moving the left leg out and driving handsomely through the covers. Almost all the youngsters one has seen in last 3-4 years have looked great driving off the front foot particularly through the off side. They seem to be all made in the same mould and coached by the same guy ! But you hardly see any one who is predominantly a backfoot player and will go back to defend if he cant go forward to drive a half volley. Again this is a tendency and I know there may be exceptions.

You combine all these and you have the recipe, not for disaster but for an inconsistent batting performance - swaying between incandescent strokeplay when the going is good and utterly inept performance in a crisis.

This is Pakistans problem with batting today and this is where Woolmer and Inzy's batting order strategies have made matters worse.
In other words, there is no real variation in their batting order, is there? Apart from Inzy and to an extent, Younis Khan, no one else really looks comfortable off the backfoot from what I have seen. Would it be such a bad idea to use Asim Kamal as an opener?
 

nikhil1772

State Vice-Captain
ajaagarkarajaaja said:
I'm sorry to hurt ur feelings but the fact is that Akhtar chucks, and soon he will be in trouble.Its not just about Bedi, Greg Chappel has also questioned his action, fact is that ICC made a terrible mistake by allowing him to play cricket with that action.

Hopefully Akhtar will get a longer ban and will then spend the rest of his life with Shabbir.
By the way Greg Chappell has denied making any such comments in todays newspapers...also Shoaib is good for cricket both controversy and non-controversy-wise so just shut-up
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
honestbharani said:
In other words, there is no real variation in their batting order, is there? Apart from Inzy and to an extent, Younis Khan, no one else really looks comfortable off the backfoot from what I have seen. Would it be such a bad idea to use Asim Kamal as an opener?
Well backfoot play is very important for opening and more so to negotiate (and leave) the moving ball - in test matches particularly. But some players, with experience, learn to cope even being predominantly front foot players. But put a front foot player PLUS let him be inexperienced and you have problems.

Coming to Asim Kamal. I am surprised at his continuous absence from the team. I have heard things like he doesnt convert starts (read 50's) to big scores. Thats a funny arguemnt when you find that people are failing to get starts too.

I think Younis Khan can open.

I know he may not want to but it is the old story in the sub continent. Most top players dont want to open. This is not surprising considering that, while it is easy to open and score heavily in sub continental flat tracks (by and large) they really worry about being exposed when touring abroad. Thus we have "bali-ka-bakras" (sacrificial lambs) that have always been pushed to open because the seniors wont take the responsibilty. It happened to Ramesh Saxena (one of the most exciting batsmen from India in the sixties but forgotten after his one test as opener in England in 1966 to VVS Laxman who is the exception who faught back to the middle order on the basis of many chances.

But the problem will not go away until we have wickets where batsmen wont survive until they perfect their backfoot technique. Over the last one hundred years or more since the backfoot game and the front foot game were combined in the same player by WG, what has diffrentiated the good player from the great has been the quality of the backfoot play.

The one day format and its batting tracks with the penalty of being ruled wide if you move the ball too much and snicks going for boundaries since slips are guarding other areas have only made backffot play reduced to slashing and slapping the cover off the ball between third man and cover point. The straight batted or even horizonatl bat but grounded shots, let alone defensive strokes off just short of a good length deliveries are required so infrequently that batsmen can actually decide not to bother to learn them.

From what one has seen from going round the junior nets around the country, one would say that the new crop of coaches dont seem to bother too much about it too. India is slightly better here but its getting worse.

I dont know about Pakistan and how much and where the young stars get there coaching from and at what time of their early cricket but it is clear that their coaches dont seem to put too much premium on back foot play. This is sad because the fact of the matter is that backfoot play once mastered can actually make for very fast scoring in one dayers too WITHOUT THE RISKS that the slashes of NEITHER foot that modern day batsmen seem to prefer. It is the need by captains to spread the field around in the inner circle (add to that the continuously shortening boundaries) that are not punishing the airy fairy shots that the modern fan and even new reporters rave about.

The bowlers too are trying to make sure their ten overs go for fewest possible runs thus the emphasis is on cramping the batsman and not-giving-him-room rather than exploiting what is actually a defect that has crept into batting techniques. Thus the moving away delivery is almost disappearing from the cricket scene. The high number of one day games is ensuring that bowlers do not unlearn what they pick up in the shorter version and finally it creeps into the nets and finally even coaches go along.

This is the vicious circle through which batting is evolving. The English cricketer is better off in this one respect that the ball moves in England so playing in the county circuit does make it imperative to know how to handle it but unfortunately they have a much smaller pool of talent and, I daresay, the talent is not of the same caliber as one sees in the subcontinent.

I have always maintained that a subcontinental cricketer with EARLY experience of playing in the English county season should be a more complete cricketer than if he learnt all his early cricket at home. Unfortunately the number of first class games in the county game have reduced with increased number of one dayers (which are still better than one dayers at home), the quality of the game has declined and not many Indian and Pakistani batsmen are getting EARLY grounding in England.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
By the way, the spell that Shoaib bowled to Dravid and Tendulkar would have , in my humble opinion, made the Pakistani youngsters at the top of the order look very inept.

India did manage to keep him out of wickets. I doubt if, barring Inzy, Younis and maybe Yousuf, Pakistani batsmen can handle him if he could summon the same fury against them.

BTW, I think it is asking too much from Kamran Akmal to get him to open after keeping wickets. I know there have been opener keepers before but these are exceptions. Akmal is one of Pakistan's best batsmen but he should bat in the middle.
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
SJS said:
Well backfoot play is very important for opening and more so to negotiate (and leave) the moving ball - in test matches particularly. But some players, with experience, learn to cope even being predominantly front foot players. But put a front foot player PLUS let him be inexperienced and you have problems.

Coming to Asim Kamal. I am surprised at his continuous absence from the team. I have heard things like he doesnt convert starts (read 50's) to big scores. Thats a funny arguemnt when you find that people are failing to get starts too.

I think Younis Khan can open.

I know he may not want to but it is the old story in the sub continent. Most top players dont want to open. This is not surprising considering that, while it is easy to open and score heavily in sub continental flat tracks (by and large) they really worry about being exposed when touring abroad. Thus we have "bali-ka-bakras" (sacrificial lambs) that have always been pushed to open because the seniors wont take the responsibilty. It happened to Ramesh Saxena (one of the most exciting batsmen from India in the sixties but forgotten after his one test as opener in England in 1966 to VVS Laxman who is the exception who faught back to the middle order on the basis of many chances.

But the problem will not go away until we have wickets where batsmen wont survive until they perfect their backfoot technique. Over the last one hundred years or more since the backfoot game and the front foot game were combined in the same player by WG, what has diffrentiated the good player from the great has been the quality of the backfoot play.

The one day format and its batting tracks with the penalty of being ruled wide if you move the ball too much and snicks going for boundaries since slips are guarding other areas have only made backffot play reduced to slashing and slapping the cover off the ball between third man and cover point. The straight batted or even horizonatl bat but grounded shots, let alone defensive strokes off just short of a good length deliveries are required so infrequently that batsmen can actually decide not to bother to learn them.

From what one has seen from going round the junior nets around the country, one would say that the new crop of coaches dont seem to bother too much about it too. India is slightly better here but its getting worse.

I dont know about Pakistan and how much and where the young stars get there coaching from and at what time of their early cricket but it is clear that their coaches dont seem to put too much premium on back foot play. This is sad because the fact of the matter is that backfoot play once mastered can actually make for very fast scoring in one dayers too WITHOUT THE RISKS that the slashes of NEITHER foot that modern day batsmen seem to prefer. It is the need by captains to spread the field around in the inner circle (add to that the continuously shortening boundaries) that are not punishing the airy fairy shots that the modern fan and even new reporters rave about.

The bowlers too are trying to make sure their ten overs go for fewest possible runs thus the emphasis is on cramping the batsman and not-giving-him-room rather than exploiting what is actually a defect that has crept into batting techniques. Thus the moving away delivery is almost disappearing from the cricket scene. The high number of one day games is ensuring that bowlers do not unlearn what they pick up in the shorter version and finally it creeps into the nets and finally even coaches go along.

This is the vicious circle through which batting is evolving. The English cricketer is better off in this one respect that the ball moves in England so playing in the county circuit does make it imperative to know how to handle it but unfortunately they have a much smaller pool of talent and, I daresay, the talent is not of the same caliber as one sees in the subcontinent.

I have always maintained that a subcontinental cricketer with EARLY experience of playing in the English county season should be a more complete cricketer than if he learnt all his early cricket at home. Unfortunately the number of first class games in the county game have reduced with increased number of one dayers (which are still better than one dayers at home), the quality of the game has declined and not many Indian and Pakistani batsmen are getting EARLY grounding in England.
Excellent post, I gotta agree. Even my school openers when I was in school had problems with one guy from another school who could bowl quick bouncers. It ended up with the bouncer being OUTLAWED in that particular tournament. The excuse was pathetic because I, for one, felt his bouncers were pretty predictable and wasn't that difficult to duck under.
 

pug

U19 Vice-Captain
SJS said:
By the way, the spell that Shoaib bowled to Dravid and Tendulkar would have , in my humble opinion, made the Pakistani youngsters at the top of the order look very inept.

India did manage to keep him out of wickets. I doubt if, barring Inzy, Younis and maybe Yousuf, Pakistani batsmen can handle him if he could summon the same fury against them.

BTW, I think it is asking too much from Kamran Akmal to get him to open after keeping wickets. I know there have been opener keepers before but these are exceptions. Akmal is one of Pakistan's best batsmen but he should bat in the middle.
Do you mean Asif? If so, I agree. The difference between the two teams is greatly reduced by the fact that India's batting supriority is countered by Pakistan's bowling superiority.

Having said that, India's pool of talent in bowling is not so bad either. All we need is one seamer who can consistently hit 140 kmph and bowl line and length decently. Add to that Pathan and RP Singh/Sreesanth and we have a formidable (perhaps not a terrifying, but formidable nevertheless) pace bowling attack.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
GoT_SpIn said:
Are you actually being serious :unsure:
Akhtar's 'lift' injured Afridi's ribs
Akhtar's 'lift' injured Afridi's ribs

I hope the real reason is not that they got into a fight and Afridi got hurt for I find it a bit strange the stress on the word "friendly" everytime this hug is mentioned by Pakistani authorities. Didnt know there was an unfriendly version of the hug too. :)

With this temramental pair anything is possible. This may explain the nystery behind Shoaib not playing and the change from falling in the bathroom to friendly hug for Afridi.

Just speculation. It would be fun in an otherwise boring series now if there was some spice on this mater.:happy:
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
pug said:
India's batting supriority is countered by Pakistan's bowling superiority.
Didnt look like that in the one dayers :)

But you are right. India have a better batting and Pakistan's bowling LINEUP does LOOK better.
 
SJS said:
Akhtar's 'lift' injured Afridi's ribs
Akhtar's 'lift' injured Afridi's ribs

I hope the real reason is not that they got into a fight and Afridi got hurt for I find it a bit strange the stress on the word "friendly" everytime this hug is mentioned by Pakistani authorities. Didnt know there was an unfriendly version of the hug too. :)

With this temramental pair anything is possible. This may explain the nystery behind Shoaib not playing and the change from falling in the bathroom to friendly hug for Afridi.

Just speculation. It would be fun in an otherwise boring series now if there was some spice on this mater.:happy:
SRS, you actually think they had an actual fight????

You Know Afridi is a very strong man, if Akhtar hurted Afridi intentionally then Afridi would have seriously hit back at Akhtar.
 

yohanna

Banned
SJS said:
Didnt look like that in the one dayers :)

But you are right. India have a better batting and Pakistan's bowling LINEUP does LOOK better.
In onedayers Pak was being lead by two inexperianced guys, one who had just started his career, and the other who had made a comeback after a long time.There was a thrd guy too who was totally messed up and should have been dropped much earlier.
As such i don't think its possible for Pak bowling lineup even to "LOOK better".I mean 3 new guys in Asif,Yasir and Gul with just one experianced pacer in Rana, it looks inexperianced rather than being better.
 

yohanna

Banned
honestbharani said:
You know, I agree that he seems to be captaincy material. His batting and his attitude to the game reminds me of Javed Miandad, really. He may not be as good as Javid as a batter, but his technique and the way he puts away loose balls so ferociously, and handles good ones so carefully, he reminds me of Miandad in his street smartness, more than anything else. He keeps things reasonably simple and has his wits about him even when the going gets tough. I think he is the ideal person to lead the side. The problem is, will guys like Shoaib and Afridi listen to him and respect him enough? The way those guys went on with their sledging even after being spoken to (not to mention the caribbean incident, when Afridi openly disrespected his captain and got away with it), I am not so sure of that happening. For that reason alone, Inzy should remain captain, as he is the one man who COMMANDS the respect of EVERYONE in this Pak side.
You have mentioned this earlier too, that Younis doesn't command respect from the likes of Akhtar and Afridi.This may be true, but if you can remember, untill few months back even Inzi had all sorts of problem with Akhtar, it was only after PCB strongly supported Inzi and made Akhtar know that he can't have his way, that Akhtar changed his behaviour.
I think if Younis is made the captain and he has the backing of PCB, then Akhtar and Afridi will have no choice but to listen to Younis.Younis is a strong and aggressive man, i think with proper backing he can handle the "difficult players".

As for the Caribbean incident, Afridi desrespected Younis openly because Afridi had full backing of Inzi then.Younis was a newly appointed vice captain then and Inzi wasn't really happy to see Younis as his deputy (esp since he was replacing Inzi's friend Yousuf Yohanna for vice captainship)
 

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