***Official*** India in England 2014

[the big bambino]

Who cares? Its only a claim brought up by you. Someone who, imo, has difficulty discussing Australia with any sort of rationality or fairness. If those things happened then India should have complained. Unless somehow someone else's negligence is Australian hypocrisy.

 

[Dan]

I don't think it was acceptable that Australia insulted Harbhajans family and lineage in the first place.

That's fine; I don't think that's acceptable either. But two wrongs don't make a right -- they're two events (admittedly not discrete) that are wrong. The former doesn't justify the latter.

Oh and ffs if you actually read my post you'd see it wasn't at all specific to the Harbhajan scenario.

 

[Cruxdude]

I just don't understand the posts saying India should never have complained. A player constantly abusing and threatening his opponents after end of play and pushing one (with or without provocation) deserves action taken against him. These are the kind of events which can blow up when not policed. Considering the lack of evidence there was no other possible result to the complaint but David Boon must seriously take a look at his decision to fine Jadeja.

 

[harsh.ag]

Of course they would, because India has form in being dodgy. It's their standard modus operandus.

Conflating the Indian team with BCCI again, I see

Also, and I think we have discussed this before on the forum, but it seems the whole ICC code is based on western values.

For many in India (I would say most), insulting family is considered way, way more out of line than punching someone in the face, and/or racial abuse (excepting for "Bhen Chod" and "Teri Maa Ki" which are more colloquial expressions than anything else. Some people use them like punctuation even ).

The Aussies and the English can easily make use of this, as it is not penalized by the ICC.

 

[Flem274*]

You mean western values like not being a dick? because i thought that was pretty universal myself.

 

[harsh.ag]

You mean western values like not being a dick? because i thought that was pretty universal myself.

But being a dick takes on different dimensions in different places. Especially when one kind of dickish behavior is not penalized by law, while others are.

 

[Flem274*]

But being a dick takes on different dimensions in different places. Especially when one kind of dickish behavior is not penalized by law, while others are.

Well maybe a culture that thinks "Your mother is a whore" is worse than racism or physical assault needs to reassess its priorities. Cultural relativism is an idea that needs to take a hike.

Not that I think Indians really believe the mother insult is worse than the latter. I think you're just being an apologist and putting generalisations in the mouths of other Indians.

 

[harsh.ag]

1)Well maybe a culture that thinks "Your mother is a whore" is worse than racism or physical assault needs to reassess its priorities. Cultural relativism is an idea that needs to take a hike.

2)Not that I think Indians really believe the mother insult is worse than the latter. I think you're just being an apologist and putting generalisations in the mouths of other Indians.

1)

2) Clearly you know my country better than I know my country. And, btw, that's why I said "Many Indians (I would say most)", not all Indians.

And I don't have anything to apologize for, so I don't know what you mean by that.

 

[silentstriker]

It should be worse, but unfortunately, racism runs rampant in many parts of India. There is a decent sized student population from Africa in the city I used to live in India that goes to the local university, and it's ridiculously hard for them to do simple things like get housing.

 

[silentstriker]

Don't see the relevance of the racism directed by members of the crowd in that odi series to symonds to what harbhajan May or may not have said to symonds himself. Fact is there has never has been any concrete evidence that proved harbhajan said something racist to symonds.

If we ignore evidence for a moment and go by who we think is to blame in that situation my take on it is that Australians certainly weren't the innocent victims they made themselves to be. Harby alleged that the Australians had said some crude and nasty stuff about his family lineage in that odi series beforehand but nothing was done about that. And in that episode in the sydney test it was pretty much acknowledged that the Aussies provoked the incident in question. Harbhajan may have said whathe said but even so I don't have a lot of sympath for the Aussie team. Their moral outrage in the wake of that incident at the allegedly nefarious role of the bcci was also laughable as they happily signed up a few months later for thee IPl when the bcci pulled out its check book.

1) I understand why Harbhajan wasn't convicted - there wasn't proof. Just like in this instance, why Anderson wasn't convicted. That doesn't mean that I disbelieve what happened. Based on the conversations that we do know about - Harby knew he stepped over the line initially when Ponting confronted him about it, only to change his story later. That people would just make up racial abuse like that and put themselves through all that **** is ridiculous to me. In addition, the relevance is that everyone knew what Symonds had gone through and how racist it was, and people were using the ridiculous excuse that 'monkey' wasn't racist because you know, we have Hanuman so clearly the fans were actually giving Symonds a compliment you see....the logical twists required to make that argument are mind boggling to me.

2) I don't care what the Australians said. Racism is not an acceptable response. Oh, the big bad Australians are cursing at you? Wow, say something back. It's not like these guys are channeling the wit of Oscar Wilde when they're insulting you. It's stupid middle school bull**** '**** you' and '****ing ****' which everyone has heard in their life.

 

[silentstriker]

Of course they would, because India has form in being dodgy. It's their standard modus operandus.

I think the camera 'not working' is hilarious because it's so completely transparent. It would have been better though if there was a mysterious gap in the tapes, ala, Nixon.

It's very easy for things to go missing in India. I'd definitely like to see some dodgy **** happen in some hallway next time some country tours and then the tapes go mysteriously missing. The reaction from the world would be quite different. But equally hilarious.

 

[Howe_zat]

if someone could just leave me a vm when this thread gets back on to cricket that'd be great thanks

 

[Salamuddin]

1) I understand why Harbhajan wasn't convicted - there wasn't proof. Just like in this instance, why Anderson wasn't convicted. That doesn't mean that I disbelieve what happened. Based on the conversations that we do know about - Harby knew he stepped over the line initially when Ponting confronted him about it, only to change his story later. That people would just make up racial abuse like that and put themselves through all that **** is ridiculous to me. In addition, the relevance is that everyone knew what Symonds had gone through and how racist it was, and people were using the ridiculous excuse that 'monkey' wasn't racist because you know, we have Hanuman so clearly the fans were actually giving Symonds a compliment you see....the logical twists required to make that argument are mind boggling to me.

2) I don't care what the Australians said. Racism is not an acceptable response. Oh, the big bad Australians are cursing at you? Wow, say something back. It's not like these guys are channeling the wit of Oscar Wilde when they're insulting you. It's stupid middle school bull**** '**** you' and '****ing ****' which everyone has heard in their life.

How do we know harbhajan changed his story ? Afaik the full record of the testimony in front of proctor or Hansen was never made public so we are all really surmising based on what was leaked (almost certainly selectively and without the relevant nuances and contexts needed for a fully objective assessment) into public domain .

Interesting that someone like you sitting miles away has decided hat Harbhajan is guilty as whereas an experienced legal practitioner like Hansen who had all the evidence there was available couldn't make that call. But ok each to their own.

As for what the Australians said, well it was a bit more than mere high school insults wasn't it. If we ignore hard evidence and entertain what each of the players alleged about the other - harbhajan claimed that the Australians had insulted his family and background. If you want to take the moral high ground why not criticise that behaviour ? It's always bemused me what harbhajan allegedly did is worse than themassacre of Katyn but anything the Australians said or did to him is perfectly kosher.

 

[Salamuddin]

if someone could just leave me a vm when this thread gets back on to cricket that'd be great thanks

Sure. This is the team that India need to pick for the next test

Gambhir
Vijay
Pujara
Jonos boy
Rahane
Jadeja
Dhoni
Ashwin
Bhuvana
Pankaj
Aaron

Need to play five bowlers in the next two tests and go for broke. Even a 2-2 draw would be a great result for India

 

[harsh.ag]

Between Varun Aaron and Ishwar Pandey, any idea who was better in the warm up games, and is generally in better FC form?

 

[Viscount Tom]

Bhuvi's a iinjury doubt for OT isn't he?

 

[Hurricane]

if someone could just leave me a vm when this thread gets back on to cricket that'd be great thanks

Gun post.

 

[Swingpanzee]

Conflating the Indian team with BCCI again, I see

Also, and I think we have discussed this before on the forum, but it seems the whole ICC code is based on western values.

For many in India (I would say most), insulting family is considered way, way more out of line than punching someone in the face, and/or racial abuse (excepting for "Bhen Chod" and "Teri Maa Ki" which are more colloquial expressions than anything else. Some people use them like punctuation even ).

The Aussies and the English can easily make use of this, as it is not penalized by the ICC.

Pathetic post. I'm Indian, and in this day and age no one can point to culture as reason for trivializing racism. What you're arguing doesn't even makes sense tbh. So you think the ICC code is based on western values (they are not actually) - so what? Indians or non-western people shouldn't follow them because?

 

[harsh.ag]

Pathetic post. I'm Indian, and in this day and age no one can point to culture as reason for trivializing racism. What you're arguing doesn't even makes sense tbh. So you think the ICC code is based on western values (they are not actually) - so what? Indians or non-western people shouldn't follow them because?

You have taken my post in a completely different way than what I meant

It was not about racism, and I do not condone it. Racist behavior should be punished.

However, my point along these lines:

Abuse A hurts person X a lot (due to cultural or other issues). Person Y knows this. He also knows abuse A is not punishable by ICC code. So he uses it to rile person X.

At the same time, abuse B hurts person Y a lot. Person X knows it. And in his riled state (caused by person Y using abuse A), he uses abuse B, and is therefore punished (as he should be).

I just think person Y should also be punished. And a code of conduct of an international body should take cultural differences in its stride.

And if you would like to discuss this further, let's do it via messaging

 

[Spark]

Okay, this entire debate is making a beeline for the prestigious title of most tedious tour thread argument of 2014, so can we please drop it now?