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**Official** English Football Season 2024/25

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
From a formation perspective I thought their 1978 side reflected the shape quite well but the personnel were off.



They played with midfielders more than wingbacks back then, which is likely because the player most suited to playing wingback for them was transitioning to sweeper. Neeskens was a good fit whenever he played there but he's a weirdo and tried to be Cruyff Lite far too often in my view..
After your previous post about Italian sides in the late 1960s/early 1970s, I looked at the line-up in the 1970 WC Final.

Now obviously this is just one person's take on the side, so it doesn't necessarily follow that they played four at the back. Bertoni may be wrongly described as a 'DM', whereas other places describe him as a defender or a midfielder. The former possibly makes more sense if the Italians were playing catenaccio in 1970. I can honestly say that I had no idea when watching the final as a ten year old. My understanding of that formation was a sweeper behind four defenders, which, I think, fits with your description of how Inter played in that era. Of course, Italian football had such a negative reputation in those days that the attacking contribution of the full-backs/wing-backs was less than obvious.

Looking at other sides, Beckenbauer's sweeper role seems to be behind three defenders rather than four, so I don't think the German full-backs would really have been wing-backs at all.
 
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Skipper Pup

U19 Vice-Captain
After your previous post about Italian sides in the late 1960s/early 1970s, I looked at the line-up in the 1970 WC Final.

Now obviously this is just one person's take on the side, so it doesn't necessarily follow that they played four at the back. Bertoni may be wrongly described as a 'DM', whereas other places describe him as a defender or a midfielder. The former possibly makes more sense if the Italians were playing catenaccio in 1970. I can honestly say that I had no idea when watching the final as a ten year old. My understanding of that formation was a sweeper behind four defenders, which, I think, fits with your description of how Inter played in that era. Of course, Italian football had such a nagtive reputation in those days that the attacking contribution of the full-backs/wing-backs was less than obvious.

Looking at other sides, Beckenbauer's sweeper role seems to be behind three defenders rather than four, so I don't think the German full-backs would really have been wing-backs at all.
Great post and thanks for sharing your views.

Appears my initial comments weren't all that far of the mark after all. These things are all quite subjective and we're analysing retrospectively (through the lens of how we view positions today) so still a bit surprising that so many were quick to jump on my throat about it.

Nonetheless, been an interesting detour away from the usual chat.
 

Himannv

Hall of Fame Member
After your previous post about Italian sides in the late 1960s/early 1970s, I looked at the line-up in the 1970 WC Final.

Now obviously this is just one person's take on the side, so it doesn't necessarily follow that they played four at the back. Bertoni may be wrongly described as a 'DM', whereas other places describe him as a defender or a midfielder. The former possibly makes more sense if the Italians were playing catenaccio in 1970. I can honestly say that I had no idea when watching the final as a ten year old. My understanding of that formation was a sweeper behind four defenders, which, I think, fits with your description of how Inter played in that era. Of course, Italian football had such a negative reputation in those days that the attacking contribution of the full-backs/wing-backs was less than obvious.

Looking at other sides, Beckenbauer's sweeper role seems to be behind three defenders rather than four, so I don't think the German full-backs would really have been wing-backs at all.
Bertoni was definitely a midfielder and a DM. This is a Zona Mista setup where the RB sort of plays as an RCB and Domenghini acts as the right sided width provider. It's not quite a back three with wingbacks but some part of the way there.

Beckenbauer played in a back 4 in my view. The German's tried the back 3 tactic more in the 80s with Augenthaler and later with Sammer I think.
 

Skipper Pup

U19 Vice-Captain
Bertoni was definitely a midfielder and a DM. This is a Zona Mista setup where the RB sort of plays as an RCB and Domenghini acts as the right sided width provider. It's not quite a back three with wingbacks but some part of the way there.

Beckenbauer played in a back 4 in my view. The German's tried the back 3 tactic more in the 80s with Augenthaler and later with Sammer I think.
As I never saw him, just how good was Franz?

Any players (attribute wise or stylistically) that would be comparable over the last 20-30 years?
 

Himannv

Hall of Fame Member
As I never saw him, just how good was Franz?

Any players (attribute wise or stylistically) that would be comparable over the last 20-30 years?
Probably the best ever sweeper and the player who made the position famous (although he didn't invent the position as some incorrectly claim). He's also excellent as a DM due to his ability to dictate play and his positional awareness.

In '66 he played more in midfield and was capable of not just being a good DM but a player who could take the ball into the box by himself and create chances/score. He didn't get the sweeper gig at the time because the German coach at the time preferred Schulz (who was also very good in my view and a more conservative option).

In the 70s he made the sweeper position his own and while he still just got forward and created overloads in attack, he also played a bit like the way a ball playing midfielder of modern times would (Schweinsteiger is perhaps a good example).

Defensively, I wouldn't say he's the best defender of all time (I'd give that to Kohler or Nesta perhaps) but I think he's right up there in the top 5-10 defenders in an all-time context. He can mark the opposition's best player out of the game (and did so against the likes of Charlton and Cruyff) and also marshal a backline.

Hard to think of a single player to compare him with because early career Beckenbauer wouldn't be out of place playing like a forward, AM, or second striker type behind Seeler, while also doing some Schweinsteiger-like things. Latter career was more peak VVD + Rodri.
 

flibbertyjibber

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What absolute muppet decided that clubs qualified for Europe can't meet each other in the league Cup 3rd round and that 4 are automatically given a home tie?

If they are fixing the draw like that then all 6 should be stuck away from home as a penalty for being in a fixed draw.

Rant over, back to laughing at the transfer window hype on SSN
 

grecian

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
10 squillion for a team in division 3, madness, I suppose we pocket 2 million, but can't help but feel it's not a great move for Jay, but we'll see.
 

andruid

Cricketer Of The Year
Coach asks for a midfielder and left back. Club sign midfielder and left back the very next day. Very unusual for Leeds.
 

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