*Official* English Football Season 2014-15

[Uppercut]

Not really, no. You could use something like number of sprints per game. It's not perfect, but it does capture the qualities of, say, Jordan Henderson in comparison to Santi Cazorla, who would tend to score better in most other measures. But I can't think how you would account for what Totti does for Roma in moving defenders around to open up space for other players.

It's definitely a blind spot but I don't think it's all that critical. I mean, you can still learn something from how many goals they score, chances they create, how often they lose the ball etc. But positioning is such a huge part of defending that the stats we have there are basically useless.

 

[Cabinet96]

Yeah, it's kind of ironic. If you go back to the days where it was just goals recorded, then it told you something about attackers but nothing about defenders. Despite the fact that every touch by every player is now recorded, it's still pretty lopsided.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

I see his point, and his final post on the subject kinda highlights the difference between us, he likes to use these models and gauge predictions/opinions from them. I like to watch games and enjoy the football thats on offer that day, and in the grand scheme of things the league table will tell me who's been the best at the end of the year.I find the overanalysis that goes on with football nowadays terribly boring, perhaps because I care for football for approximately 90 minutes when needed - but for me its entertainment, so i watch it, and have the odd casual conversation when bored (I've been bored approx 10k times over the last decade by the looks of it.)

Alas this thread, IMO, has become less about the enjoyment of the game, and more overanalysis at times. I'd much rather watch video's of City winning the league and seeing grown men cry (thanks Smitteh. ****). I guess given its a forum of cricket fans - a game that does benefit from in depth analysis of form and stats - its inevitable.

Of course I could feel totally different to everyone else....

You got to question whether you're using too many numbers when the tax accountant gets bored by them...

That said, rather analysis than banter and 'my-club-is-bigger-than-yours' ****.

 

[cpr]

Ah well, NBA season starts in 9 days, if you want over analysis, become a basketball fan.

Now theres a sport I really can't get into. I'd like to put my objections down to it being too end to end, or I can't get on board a sport where you can score 100 and still lose, but I like Tennis and Cricket....

NFL goes all right for its stats love too (mind you, all American sports do), so i'll settle for that. It also has enough breaks for my weak bladder to appreciate

That said, rather analysis than banter and 'my-club-is-bigger-than-yours' ****.

I used to like that when we were a big club....

 

[GIMH]

Not really, no. You could use something like number of sprints per game. It's not perfect, but it does capture the qualities of, say, Jordan Henderson in comparison to Santi Cazorla, who would tend to score better in most other measures. But I can't think how you would account for what Totti does for Roma in moving defenders around to open up space for other players.

It's definitely a blind spot but I don't think it's all that critical. I mean, you can still learn something from how many goals they score, chances they create, how often they lose the ball etc. But positioning is such a huge part of defending that the stats we have there are basically useless.

Yeah see id say this is critical for pretty much all players, and it's what you can't even analyse all that well on TV, or even behind the goal at the match

I mean I've been taking my daughter the game this season and she didn't really like it behind the goal so I took her on the Johnny King Stand, sat just by the halfway line and felt I was watching a different game. Got so much more out of it, a full back I thought had been having a good season was enraging me by the space he was leaving. But maybe that's just me.

Certainly wasn't my intention to give a 'I go the game' vibe off - I miss more than I go to so most prem fans probably see more of their team than I do mine - but it's why I think so much analysis misses a beat because so much of what creates chances, for and against your team, isn't statistically measurable at all.

Mark Rankine, a holding midfielder, was probably our best player in 04-05 (last time we were good) and it wasn't because of what he did on the ball or in terms of tackling but because of how he positioned himself and limited the opposition. And we often see it, albeit less these days admittedly, where players like that are scorned by fans and critics alike.

 

[Tom Halsey]

So stats guys, is there much out there about off the ball stuff?

Yeah that's just it I think. I think stats (even goalscoring stats for strikers) have very little relevance for individual players because football is a continuous game rather than a series of easily analysable discrete events such as in cricket. Obviously ceteris paribus you'd rather someone scored more goals than not, but it never is ceteris paribus and thus I think the stat(s) are of little enough relevance that I'd always just override them by my own personal opinion having actually watched them play. There have been several examples of poachers in recent times who have scored lots of goals but not actually added any value to their sides, for instance.

I think it is a little different for whole teams though because the point of football is to win matches and the team that does that more often than anyone else is probably better. Obviously mid season this has to be adjusted for the difficulty of a side's fixtures. Statistics still aren't the be all and end all though even over a whole season because one thing absolutely no-one seems to realise is how high variance football is and so I still think there is plenty of room for a subjective judgement. That also goes for cricket as well. Was going to post in one of those threads that became endless stats once how the 95% confidence interval for his "true" average for a batsman who averaged 40 for 60 times out and with a normal standard deviation is 30 to 50 once, the point being obviously that stats often don't tell us very much. Then decided I cbf.

I find a couple of posts to the effect of how the thread has become boring due to analysis of football strange in a thread that is expressly about analysis of football. If stats help that analysis then so be it. I don't understand why someone who doesn't want to think about/discuss football is posting in a football thread.

Disclaimer: posted from a phone in a pub after a few, so I probably haven't got across what I am trying to say very well and doubtless have missed a few typos.

EDIT: and onviously what I assume was your rhetorical question about stats not providing much help with off the ball stuff is true too.

 

[GIMH]

It wasn't rhetorical but I had certainly never seen any

 

[Magrat Garlick]

I suspect there are stats on off-the-ball stuff, probably related to Opta data which tracks every player's movement, but not in the public domain.

I mean our Drillo had a very stats-based approach to off-the-ball football in the early 1990s, and I'm sure things have come on in leaps and bounds since then

 

[Cabinet96]

Yeah, one of the weird things is that we have no idea where clubs and the like are when it comes to this stuff. They could theoretically use data that everyone away from the club doesn't even know exists.

 

[sledger]

Apparently Villas Boas does that sort of thing quite a lot tbh.

 

[Cabinet96]

The cynical side of me says West Brom scored to early, but think United will probably be vulnerable on the break all night now if they don't equalise soon.

 

[Furball]

I see the Fellaini that did well at Everton is back.

 

[Uppercut]

Hahaha Fellaini! Shows why you need him playing high up the pitch.

 

[superkingdave]

Lol'd at the West Brom official Twitter posting this at half time

@WBAFCofficial: Fellaini has now taken his tracksuit off, fortunately he has a Man Utd strip on underneath #WBAMUN

 

[Burgey]

That's embarrassing from Rafael. What abject defending.

 

[OverratedSanity]

That's like semi pro in fifa... through pass into a massive hole at the back

 

[Uppercut]

Not sure we're much better than last year but we're much more fun to watch.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah see id say this is critical for pretty much all players, and it's what you can't even analyse all that well on TV, or even behind the goal at the match

I mean I've been taking my daughter the game this season and she didn't really like it behind the goal so I took her on the Johnny King Stand, sat just by the halfway line and felt I was watching a different game. Got so much more out of it, a full back I thought had been having a good season was enraging me by the space he was leaving. But maybe that's just me.

Certainly wasn't my intention to give a 'I go the game' vibe off - I miss more than I go to so most prem fans probably see more of their team than I do mine - but it's why I think so much analysis misses a beat because so much of what creates chances, for and against your team, isn't statistically measurable at all.

Mark Rankine, a holding midfielder, was probably our best player in 04-05 (last time we were good) and it wasn't because of what he did on the ball or in terms of tackling but because of how he positioned himself and limited the opposition. And we often see it, albeit less these days admittedly, where players like that are scorned by fans and critics alike.

Ftr I agree with all of this but especially the last part. If you do that job well you don't even need to touch the ball because no one passes it near you. Makelele the obvious master of shutting a team out completely without even seeming to do anything.

 

[sledger]

Players like Xavi and Pirlo are also really good at this. They may even get particularly underrated in this regard, as their on the ball strengths are so pronounced.

 

[grecian]

Not sure we're much better than last year but we're much more fun to watch.

You're like classic Tottenham nowadays, you must be so proud