*Official* English Football Season 2010-11

[vcs]

It seems to be taboo to criticize Gerrard on here for some reason but saying he isn't a great central midfielder isn't such a controversial view really.

 

[GIMH]

A - it certainly isn't a taboo, in fact I've said before that I think he's underrated on here
B - all well and good but that's not what you said. You said you'd never rated him as a CM.

He is a great CM anyway. Where exactly you want to place him is definitely arguable, but I'd say Scholes is the only midfielder of his generation who is as good - talking purely about English players.

I remember you saying you hadn't watched footy for more than a few years so, no offence, but you probably never saw a lot of Gerrard's best years, I.e. 2001-onwards

 

[vcs]

I saw a fair amount of Gerrard from 2004 onwards. His style of conducting play in midfield just doesn't appeal to me.. far too chaotic. Generally needs someone to do a disciplined job next to him. He is not a great CM for me, nowhere close. The closest he came to greatness was when he played purely as an attacking midfielder off Torres, with two disciplined midfielders behind him orchestrating the play (Alonso and Mascherano/Lucas).

 

[GIMH]

Well I don't want to go over old ground but that ignores so many of his earlier achievements. Liverpool built their team around him when they were **** and did so again in 06-09 when they were pretty good.

The thing about footy is that it's widely accepted that stats are fairly meaningless for anyone except an out and out striker. This is a good thing but it does mean we get the equivalent of 55+ averaging batsmen getting dismissed as not much cop.

Gerrard's best season may well have been when he was the link-up between Alonso and Torres, then again Scholes was a better player alongside Keane, Lampard is better when Essien is there etc. Tell a player to focus on less, they will be seen to do more.

Then again, some would argue that Gerrard's best season was 03-04 where he played as a holding midfielder and single-handedly dragged an appalling Liverpool side to 4th, and into the European Cup, which they would go on to win. Of course, some would say his best year was that year they won the CL. Still, I know plenty who reckon it was the 05-06 season, or the 07-08. Oh yeah and some people who've watched his whole career reckon the Gerrard of 00-01 and 01-02 was a sight for sore eyes and that he was a big miss in the 02 World Cup.

He's been below his best this season, but he's been a fantastic individual and team player pretty much his whole career. If he didn't want to stay at Liverpool/was scared of leaving (delete as appropriate) he could have gone somewhere and won Championships but I think he's done enough to earn the respect of football fans.

 

[vcs]

Oh, I'm not judging him based on statistics. If that was the case, I'd consider him superior to a lot of midfielders who have a different style of play, but score less goals than him. I agree that only strikers can be reasonably compared using just stats. For me, it's the way he approaches his midfield play.. it's good when he's part of a weaker team, but not conducive to building a dominant side when you put him alongside good teammates. That's why I think it's no coincidence that he was absolved of defensive responsibility when Liverpool had a strong team in 2008-09.

 

[GIMH]

I see what you're saying but I honestly think you're looking at it the wrong way round. In pretty much every side he plays in, the position Gerrard plays is more indicative of the abilities of his team-mates than himself. Stick him in a team with Alonso and Mascherano then he gets pushed forwards. Stick him in one with Lampard and he gets put deeper, or wide. Why is that? Because he's a better all-round footballer than any of them and so can play in a wider range of positions.

If you think he's best in the hole, that's a fair call - certainly it's where most people seemed to want him in the World Cup last year.

That doesn't diminish his abilities in central midfield though, where he has achieved more than enough in his career to be considered a great of his generation.

 

[GIMH]

Also - I know you aren't using stats. I'm just trying to make a point that in football, it's a lot easier to make a case for a great not being one, whereas if a batsman averages 55 and people try and talk him down, it's easy enough to rebuke.

 

[vcs]

Yes, I agree. The only proper way to rate footballers is to watch them throughout their careers.

Like I said, there's something about the way he conducts the play in central midfield which just doesn't suit my taste. It feels as if he doesn't respect the value of possession enough and tries to do much by himself, or goes for overambitious passes (and I've seen him do this even when he's playing in a very good team, in which he could trust his teammates more). That tends to be very costly against quality opposition. I accept I could be wrong and maybe I just haven't watched him enough, but that's the impression I have.

 

[GIMH]

So this is the point where I either agree to disagree or call you a ****

Gonna leave my options open

 

[marc71178]

Also, don't know what the media have been like in the UK, but in Australia it's mainly been about how Spurs are losing their grip on fourth spot. If anything, Spurs are resigned to sixth unless they somehow produce three points tomorrow imo.

The bubble's burst. Watch them sell a few players in the summer and return to mediocrity. Hopefully it'll end the "Harry for England" calls as well.

 

[Nate]

Reckon they should snap up Given. And a capable striker frbs.

 

[roseboy64]

The bubble's burst. Watch them sell a few players in the summer and return to mediocrity. Hopefully it'll end the "Harry for England" calls as well.

Nah I fancy they'll stick around next season.

 

[Ikki]

Yeah, as Nnanden said...Gerrard walks into this Liverpool side. He's still the best player in this team, and definitely the most versatile/adaptable. So, fitting in will be the least of worries IMO. The only question that has been on Gerrard for the past 2 years has been his fitness. Kenny has hinted that Gerrard has never been fully fit and should have taken his latest surgery a while ago. Hopefully he comes back refreshed.

Also, Liverpool is rumoured to have about a 70m war-chest for the summer (which is actually quite likely, although I wont go into it) and a few more world class players ontop of these guys...and I get the feeling we'll be serious title contenders under Kenny.

That doesn't diminish his abilities in central midfield though, where he has achieved more than enough in his career to be considered a great of his generation.

CL winner + UEFA club footballer of the year as a CM. The problem with Gerrard is him being so good in so many other positions that it makes him appear less specialised, hence not as good, for playing in the middle.

 

[vcs]

BTW, they finished fifth in the league in the same season that they won the CL and he won the UEFA awards as a CM. Not coincidentally, he was shifted to the right the following season and they finished with 80+ points. Just sayin'.

 

[Ikki]

TBF, the reason we finished 5th was because of him. That was one of the worst seasons in terms of injury we'd ever had. IIRC everyone bar Hyypia was out for one spell or another. Did make for some interesting games though. Will never forget Mellor's goal against Arsenal. Winning the CL that year was a miracle.

 

[Uppercut]

Xavi Alonso was better at CM than Gerrard was.

Or rather, the team was always better with Alonso at CM than it was with Gerrard there. Which is almost the same thing.

There aren't many players like the '01-'02~ Gerrard around anymore. Central midfield roles tend to be a little more well-defined than they were.

 

[Ikki]

Disagree, in 04-05 Alonso wasn't better than Gerrard in the middle and that was when they were both strictly CMs and not AM or DM. In the end though Alonso became better than Gerrard in the middle for us - i.e. 08-09. There is a lot of myth about Alonso and Liverpool. He had a good first season; injury-filled and average 2 years after that; and a fantastic last season. I think Xabi was best when he had someone like Sissoko or Mascherano. As a CM standing on his own he isn't the strongest player there - he needs someone to help him defensively. On these terms, Gerrard is better because he doesn't.

Agree with your point about different CMs these days - and maybe that is why Alonso is better now than when he arrived (the shift in emphasis of what a CM has to be doing). I recall a Jonathan Wilson article about this very point which said that Gerrard was more the old-school CM and had he born earlier he would be considered even greater than he is now. I don't agree with all that he has said but the gist of the article is right IMO.

 

[vcs]

Xavi Alonso was better at CM than Gerrard was.

Or rather, the team was always better with Alonso at CM than it was with Gerrard there. Which is almost the same thing.

There aren't many players like the '01-'02~ Gerrard around anymore. Central midfield roles tend to be a little more well-defined than they were.

Basically what I've been labouring to say all this while.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

So freaking nervous.

 

[Craig]

Gallas saves a certain goal from Vieria.