*Official* English Football Season 2010-11

[GIMH]

The Liverpool team has suffered more sans Alonso than it does sans Gerrard. Remove Alonso (their only truly major loss that summer) and Liverpool went from 86 points and 2nd to 63 points and 7th. Meanwhile by far their best run of this season has come when Gerrard has been absent. Personally, I don't find the fact that in recent times Liverpool have suffered more without Alonso than without Gerrard very coincidental.

I don't think you've made much of a point here. In addition to Alonso going, Torres dropped off in his last season and a half at Liverpool. Gerrard hasn't played as well - you can't say that's down to Alonso as Gerrard was a great player before he played with Alonso and during Alonso's less effective seasons at Liverpool.

They also imploded politically last season which played a huge part in their decline.

Liverpool have had their best run lately because of Dalglish. To compare the two halves of the season and put it down to Gerrard is daft.

 

[Ikki]

The Liverpool team has suffered more sans Alonso than it does sans Gerrard. Remove Alonso (their only truly major loss that summer) and Liverpool went from 86 points and 2nd to 63 points and 7th. Meanwhile by far their best run of this season has come when Gerrard has been absent. Personally, I don't find the fact that in recent times Liverpool have suffered more without Alonso than without Gerrard very coincidental.

Correlation =/= Causation.

The team had gotten reliant on the 4-2-3-1 that Alonso played in and our version needed someone like Alonso to dictate play. In that aspect, I think we really did need Alonso more than Gerrard but overall it's not even close. Gerrard played with Alonso for 4 years and in at least 3 of them there was no question as to who was better. Even in Alonso's best season Gerrard was the runner up PFA player of the year, FWA player of the year and the fans/press player of the year at Liverpool (just to show you who was considered the best that year).

That next year also many players went through a lack of form/injury, including Gerrard. Not to mention the things that happened behind the curtains.

------

On a more related/recent note: god damn Crouch. City have settled the CL spot. I hope we pummel Spurs for losing to City.

 

[Uppercut]

I'd say losing Alonso was definitely the single biggest factor in Liverpool falling from 2nd to 7th in one season. The political implosion happened because they were playing badly, it's not what caused them to play badly.

I definitely don't think Alonso is better than Gerrard, he was just so, so important to the team. They don't have anyone who can do the same job. Gerrard was forced to drop deep all the time when Alonso wasn't in the side and isn't anywhere near as effective there as he is in the final third.

 

[GIMH]

Okay, that's a fair post except for the political implosion which was triggered by off-field factors from the season before, when they finished 2nd

 

[duffer]

We're being linked to Kaka this summer. Heh, what a ****ing load of Kaka.

 

[Cevno]

Duffer you support Chelsea?

Kaka's mother tweeted yesterday -

"Next season we will be in London, spreading the word of God. We will be there from August. I tell you."

Premier League - Kaka's mum revals Prem move - Yahoo! Eurosport

 

[duffer]

Of course, I love Chelsea.

 

[Cevno]

Oops.

Searching your old posts,you are a Arsenal supporter.

Where did you guys get linked to Kaka though?

He is as unlike a Wenger signing as it gets. If he comes to England will only be Chelsea or City.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

I'd happily take Kaka at City. I understand he's a shadow of 05-07 Kaka and he's rather injury plagued these days but adding a player of his experience and his quality to a team headed for their first Champions League campaign cannot be a wrong move. He may struggle with the physicality of the Prem, but with Silva and Yaya both there to play a similar position and de Jong/Barry there to shield he could be a very shrewd aquisition. I'd certainly buy a Kaka jersey the first day they were available, just like I did with Robinho...

 

[GIMH]

WTF Smitteh, less serious posting, more swearing

 

[Ikki]

Okay, that's a fair post except for the political implosion which was triggered by off-field factors from the season before, when they finished 2nd

True.

Also, interestingly on some LFC forums people are discussing who they'd take right now out of Lucas, Alonso and Mascherano. From the looks of it Lucas is getting the most love. Possibly because he's the one that is left but there is merit in it. He is a more adventurous passer than Mascherano and has comparable work-rate in defence that Alonso doesn't have. Something of an inbetween and it fits our system right now very well.

 

[dontcloseyoureyes]

WTF Smitteh, less serious posting, more swearing

Okay, is this more to your liking?:

 

[GIMH]

Lucas seems to have earned a lot of kudos this season, prior to that, though, he was always one of those interesting players that fans who went the game rated but the rest of the world didn't.

 

[GIMH]

Okay, is this more to your liking?:

VINTAGE SMlTTEH

 

[Tom Halsey]

I don't think you've made much of a point here. In addition to Alonso going, Torres dropped off in his last season and a half at Liverpool. Gerrard hasn't played as well - you can't say that's down to Alonso as Gerrard was a great player before he played with Alonso and during Alonso's less effective seasons at Liverpool.

They also imploded politically last season which played a huge part in their decline.

According to wiki, Torres played 22 league games last season and scored 18 goals, and in the season they came 2nd he played 24 league games and scored 14 goals - I don't think it had too much to do with Torres. I don't think the ownership issue can be used either - there had been a great deal of resentment for a while, including during the season where they came 2nd, and the club wasn't actually sold until this season.

Liverpool have had their best run lately because of Dalglish. To compare the two halves of the season and put it down to Gerrard is daft.

I'm not trying to put it down to Gerrard. I'm not trying to say the team is better off without him at all, I'm just saying that they've had their best run of the season without him, which to me indicates he's not very crucial to the cause.

 

[GIMH]

Fair enough if I was mistaken about Torres. I am happy to admit if I get things wrong (you ****ing **** )

The politics did affect things though. It all came to a head in the 09-10 season. Simply because it started to affect Benitez, and the effect of that was twofold:

1. Strange decisions in terms of selection/tactics
2. If your manager is visibly low on morale etc, your own performance will suffer, this is true in any walk of life

It simply isn't true at all to claim that the politics happened because they weren't performing, because it had been there for about 3 or 4 years.

 

[Ikki]

Can only speak for myself but I rated him a lot since last season. He was the whipping boy despite the fact that he was one of the few truly consistent out-field players. This year he is player of the year without a doubt. He holds that midfield together almost single-handedly at times. Great lungs and anticipation to make an intervention. It was epitomised against Arsenal not too long ago where we had to throw on our teenage full-backs and he was covering for both of them, giving them as much help as possible. You could see him giving the other lads hand shakes when they did things right and tried to get them confident - almost as a sign to say "I'm here, I won't let you lads go through what I went through".

As you can see I am big fan. The amount of **** he got last year and the year before...yet he still keeps going on his business, improving game by game is so endearing. In an age of instant success where fans no longer have time for players to grow into their roles it is amazing how he held his own and never hid or shirked responsibility. His twitter still gets a lot of idiots posting **** about him and I remember when one fan of his said "Lucas, don't listen to them", he replied "Don't worry, I only listen to the real fans". Says a lot about his character and you understand what Rafa meant when he keps going on about "mentalitee".

 

[vcs]

Yeah, I like Lucas as well. One of those guys who are always reliable and play well against the big teams consistently, like Fletcher for Man Utd (Arsenal could use one of those). Fletcher's been disappointing this season though.

 

[Ikki]

It simply isn't true at all to claim that the politics happened because they weren't performing, because it had been there for about 3 or 4 years.

Yes, not sure why people think it happened overnight. Even after the CL final (Athens) there were interesting words between Benitez and the owners. Heck, before the season even started IIRC Reina came out saying something controversial that the fans should not expect success because we needed more players (a direct reference to the owners) at a time when people were predicting we'd win the league. The owners had also shafted Rafa in the season we came 7th by promising money to get Jovetic and restricting him to places where we were owed money (Roma-Riise-Aquilani and Pompey-Crouch-Johnson).

That season started poorly and worse when Gerrard was available, Torres usually wasn't and vice-versa. We also had a load of really poor refereeing decisions that year (beachballgate anyone?) and hit the post a league-leading 11 times. We also conceded a lot (a lot) of late goals. It's not an excuse but when things keep going bad for you it is hard to build momentum to get it going well again as the team loses confidence. In that season, especially, it was very competitive and with all that happened we were really only 2 wins off CL football again.

 

[Tom Halsey]

The politics did affect things though. It all came to a head in the 09-10 season. Simply because it started to affect Benitez, and the effect of that was twofold:

1. Strange decisions in terms of selection/tactics
2. If your manager is visibly low on morale etc, your own performance will suffer, this is true in any walk of life

It simply isn't true at all to claim that the politics happened because they weren't performing, because it had been there for about 3 or 4 years.

Bolded is basically my point. I'm still not convinced that it came to a head last season any more than in others.

Benitez's selection/tactics were always weird. He was under constant criticism for his tinkering almost from as soon as he arrived in England, and the perceived negativity of his tactics and the resultant high number of home draws was blamed for their failure to win the league in 2009 (I particularly recall a 0-0 at home to Stoke for some reason but there were lots of others). Admittedly he did a lot of strange **** in his final season but I think you're forgetting how much strange stuff he did in other years too.

He was undermined for a long time before last season too. Just googled the whole Klinsmann story and that came as far back as January 2008, and the article (Liverpool owners wanted Jurgen Klinsmann - Telegraph) mentions disputes and problems with the owners several times. Additionally in the year they came 2nd was the 'facts' rant, but it didn't seem to affect the team then.

I accept that Alonso leaving wasn't the only change from 08/09 to 09/10, but it was by far the biggest IMO.