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*Official* English Football Season 2009-2010

Uppercut

Uppercut

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Ikki said:
Sure but Arsenal lost more than Vieira. In the space of a few years that winning team had a mass of new players with older players gone - look at the team that was even in the CL final and the one now; almost unrecognizable. As for Keane, you're forgetting he was there when Arsenal won back-to-back titles, and a few years after United has won 3 in a row.

I think Gerrard will always have something against him until he wins the league; but when I look back on the teams that he's played with, truthfully, until recently there wasn't one that could genuinely mount a season long challenge. IMO, you take Keane or Vieira out and put Gerrard in and they're winning titles.
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Hmm. I'd say Keane was at his peak from about 1996-2003, before his operation. We lost the title in '98 with Keane out for the season with a cruciate ligament injury. So you're looking at 6 titles in 7 seasons.

Whether we'd have been as good with Gerrard is idle speculation, but I would say that I don't think he'd have been as good at instilling a winning mentality as Keane was. You can in his comments now about Ireland's defending for the Given goal the influence he had over the side. He didn't take a lack of commitment from anyone. I don't know if Gerrard has it in him to force the best out of players the way Keane did. Seems so much more decent a guy.
 
The Sean

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Incidentally, here's what an all time Premier League XI would look like based on annual appearances in the PFA Team of the Season - so longevity obviously a factor here:

Code: 
                 Schmeichel

Neville    Ferdinand     Pallister    Cashley

Beckham     Gerrard      Vieira       Giggs

             Shearer     Henry
 
Ikki

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Uppercut said:
Hmm. I'd say Keane was at his peak from about 1996-2003, before his operation. We lost the title in '98 with Keane out for the season with a cruciate ligament injury. So you're looking at 6 titles in 7 seasons.

Whether we'd have been as good with Gerrard is idle speculation, but I would say that I don't think he'd have been as good at instilling a winning mentality as Keane was. You can in his comments now about Ireland's defending for the Given goal the influence he had over the side. He didn't take a lack of commitment from anyone. I don't know if Gerrard has it in him to force the best out of players the way Keane did. Seems so much more decent a guy.
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I agree, it's speculation and one that entails a whole lot of factors you can never really predict on. I only put the thought out that ability-wise he could do anything Keane could.

But I reckon you're really underestimating Gerrard's drive to win. He is one of the worst losers in football. He doesn't go irate the way Keane does but, believe me, he is his own worst critic.

As for inspiring teammates...you just have to listen to what they say about him. It's funny hearing grown men in awe of another man. In a report Robinson did for Spanish TV, you saw how much Torres looked up to Gerrard. He said Gerrard "commands respect...him just being in the dressing room gives everybody belief". Did you read what Kaka said the other week about Gerrard? "He has the heart of a lion and is the icon of the modern footballer with his ability to attack and defend so well." Henry himself is like Gerrard's biggest fan. He's got a different demeanor to Keane but just as good as inspiring others.
 
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BoyBrumby

BoyBrumby

Englishman
GeraintIsMyHero said:
Didn't know he was at United in the 1930s tbh :p

(edit, not sure if they've done back-to-back since, but they certainly haven't in the last three decades)
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Sadly no. Only five clubs have retained the title since the war. Spotters badge for anyone who knows which ones without looking.

& Giggs>Pires in my estimation; quicker, obviously and a much more willing worker.
 
Uppercut

Uppercut

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Ikki said:
I agree, it's speculation and one that entails a whole lot of factors you can never really predict on. I only put the thought out that ability-wise he could do anything Keane could.

But I reckon you're really underestimating Gerrard's drive to win. He is one of the worst losers in football. He doesn't go irate the way Keane does but, believe me, he is his own worst critic.

As for inspiring teammates...you just have to listen to what they say about him. It's funny hearing grown men in awe of another man. In a report Robinson did for Spanish TV, you saw how much Torres looked up to Gerrard. He said Gerrard "commands respect...him just being in the dressing room gives everybody belief". Did you read what Kaka said the other week about Gerrard? "He has the heart of a lion and is the icon of the modern footballer with his ability to attack and defend so well." Henry himself is like Gerrard's biggest fan. He's got a different demeanor to Keane but just as good as inspiring others.
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Well, yeah, but the results aren't there. There are some things we don't really know. Can he keep a team together in the run-in to a seriously hard-fought Premiership season? How well will he play in a properly successful side where he's not necessarily the main man? We know he's a fantastic big-game player, but can he pull his side through on crucial matches away to Stoke?

Maybe, but we haven't seen much evidence of it, so we can only speculate. We don't have to ask these questions for players like Keane and Vieira, they've both done these things so many times. That's why I'm a bit reluctant to pick a player in an all-time Premiership XI who's never won one. It's not that I don't think he's good enough to be the driving force behind a title-winning side. It's just that I don't know whether he is.
 
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Furball

Furball

Evil Scotsman
grecian said:
Not sure how old you are Ginger Furball, but Shearer for Blackburn was a fairly incredible player, his cruciate injury killed off a lot of his pace and made him a slightly one-dimensional player. Yet when he almost single-handedly won Blackburn the title he was World-class IMHO. Henry better, just, but not by miles IMHO.:)
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During Shearer's "world class" phase with Blackburn he couldn't hit a barn door with England and made little to no impact on Europe.

Great Premiership striker who IMO never proved himself at the highest level, for club or country.
 
Furball

Furball

Evil Scotsman
Uppercut said:
Well if you're going to play Gerrard it has to be as part of a midfield three and Vieira is in there anyway.

Lampard's better than, or at least equal to, Gerrard for mine, so if Gerrard's too good to leave out then so is Lampard and this team have the problem England had until they appointed a manager with balls.
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Scholes is better than both.
 
GIMH

GIMH

Norwood's on Fire
GingerFurball said:
During Shearer's "world class" phase with Blackburn he couldn't hit a barn door with England and made little to no impact on Europe.

Great Premiership striker who IMO never proved himself at the highest level, for club or country.
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He scored 30 goals in 63 internationals, that's hardly failing for his country, is it?

He of course did go through a period of about 15 games without scoring for England. This, IMO, makes you realise just how effective he was the rest of the time for England. And this period saw England only playing friendlies. He was top scorer in Euro 96 with five goals in five games, and scored 9 goals in 12 games at EC/WC overall. So, DWTA
 
marc71178

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
The Sean said:
Midfield is fine, though personally I'd pick Ronaldo ahead of Becks on the right.
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I'd argue that he was only truly class when he played up front, and not in a right midfield role, so would therefore have no hesitation in putting Beckham in there in that position.
 
Ikki

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Uppercut said:
Well, yeah, but the results aren't there. There are some things we don't really know. Can he keep a team together in the run-in to a seriously hard-fought Premiership season? How well will he play in a properly successful side where he's not necessarily the main man? We know he's a fantastic big-game player, but can he pull his side through on crucial matches away to Stoke?

Maybe, but we haven't seen much evidence of it, so we can only speculate. We don't have to ask these questions for players like Keane and Vieira, they've both done these things so many times. That's why I'm a bit reluctant to pick a player in an all-time Premiership XI who's never won one. It's not that I don't think he's good enough to be the driving force behind a title-winning side. It's just that I don't know whether he is.
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I think you're stretching this point rather thin. Last year had his Stoke goal not been wrongly called, and Macheda not deflected a late goal against Sunderland, we'd have the title. Very little in there for leadership. It's not upto a captain to motivate players every single game to fight for an EPL title. If they need that kind of babysitting they're in the wrong team.

I think the biggest thing, and most obvious thing, is the ability of Gerrard's teammates. If you swap Keane or Vieira for Gerrard Liverpool still aren't winning anything; and then you would be questioning them instead. Gerrard has scored in games like those away to stoke or take his last minute winner against Bolton just a few weeks back. He regularly has 20+goals/10+assist seasons...so you can't say he isn't chipping in, in these kinds of games. Unfortunately for Gerrard, he'll probably always be the main man because he's probably always going to be the best player in his team and for the foreseeable future his teammates aren't going to be 30 million pound players. Keane and Vieira have played in sides where for many games they could be mediocre/average in a few games and their teammates would still secure the victory. Gerrard doesn't have that luxury. Not that Liverpool hasn't won games when Gerrard is not playing or is just average; but there are many more games where Gerrard has to show up with comparison to the others.

I think GIMH makes a good point that in a team game, you can lose perspective talking about titles, solely. It's kind of like saying, you can't rate Tendulkar as the greatest ODI opener of all-time because he never won a World Cup.
 
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