*Official* England in West Indies

[Jigga988]

Whats the address?

Sorry Manee, if it's not too much trouble you mind sending me one too, always been interested in swing, never been all that good at the art though...

e-mail = gregoryramp@btinternet.com

 

[Manee]

Sorry Manee, if it's not too much trouble you mind sending me one too, always been interested in swing, never been all that good at the art though...

e-mail = gregoryramp@btinternet.com

Doesn't show the ball swinging, although can have that if you wish.

 

[Richard]

I actually have seen him bowl many times. He is your typical English swing bowler that would get smoked on a flat deck.

Apart from the fact he's no different from typical English non-swing bowlers who would and constantly do get smoked on flat decks... what evidence is there that he'd go around the park on a flat deck? It seems more likely to me that he'd get circa 28-67-1 than 26-102-1.

 

[Richard]

Interestingly enough, I read a little while back and saw on a TV show (one of those lunch break specials, or perhaps an MCC masterclass video) that there is a theory that swing could be partially reliant on a layer of water vapour which lies above the pitch. Presumably, this would be swing after pitching, but is an important point nonetheless.

Swing is such a fickle thing, and at times there seems no logical explanation as why to the ball begins swinging, or sometimes doesn't swing, other times more than normal. There are a number of contributory factors that all need to come together. I heard about the water vapour above the pitch also.

Weather conditions, state of the ball, atmosphere, wrist position, are a few of the factors affecting swing.

Bowling action too. Many attribute such swing to manipulation of wrist position but I have a video and will email you a few snaps, if you wish, of deliberately closing off my action in order to swing it in to the right hander (I am left arm over), having my wrist still face the outswing position and the ball swing in.

Microturbulence.

In dry, warm conditions, air currents (microturbulence) rise from the surface and disturb the atmosphere, disrupting swing. In overcast or damp weather this turbulence stops, presenting a clean atmosphere and allowing the swing to occur.

Thanks for that Einstein

Honestly though, thanks a lot, I am quite fascinated in such stuff.

Yes if you could e-mail me those, just so I can get a full picture on how this was attained. I do think certain actions are more prone to swinging the ball in certain directions, but I believe the position of the wrist crucial in swinging it the other way, with orthodox swing.

There's no doubt that certain factors have been pinned down which undoubtedly affect the amount a cricket-ball swings. However, as Paul says, there are times when it's simply impossible to offer a truly cogent explanation of exactly why what is happening is happening.

I'm a swing bowler myself, have naturally swung the ball pretty much ever since I first bowled with a hard ball (obviously pretty much anyone can swing a KwikCricket ball). Only fairly recently, though, have I actually begun to try to look into just why and how I, and others, swing it.

The essential most important thing within the bowler's control, of course, is the seam position - which is maneouvered by the angle of the arm and wrist. The bowler only has so much control over the condition of the ball and obviously none whatsoever over atmospherics.

I myself have taken a look recently into why I can only bowl the outswinger-to-RHB (I'm a right-armer) and I've found that, without even thinking about it, my arm and wrist have simply fallen into the perfect position to bowl that. I've worked-out what I need to do to be able to put the seam into the position to bowl the inswinger, but actually doing it is going to be much, much harder.

 

[Neil Pickup]

Cricinfo - 1st unofficial Test: New Zealand A v England Lions at Queenstown, Mar 1-4, 2009

Notable for Davies' figures on an absolute road - 29-13-54-4

 

[BoyBrumby]

Apart from the fact he's no different from typical English non-swing bowlers who would and constantly do get smoked on flat decks... what evidence is there that he'd go around the park on a flat deck? It seems more likely to me that he'd get circa 28-67-1 than 26-102-1.

Got badly carted in a game v Worcester Sky carried. Bowled 4 overs for 40-odd. Wasn't even a flat deck either, especially. Think his pace was just more inviting than Harmison's or Onion's. Jon Lewis wasn't a success in tests, so I don't think Davies, who's of similar pace if slightly taller, would be either.

One day game, obviously, but that's generally what Sky show.

 

[Pup Clarke]

Got badly carted in a game v Worcester Sky carried. Bowled 4 overs for 40-odd. Wasn't even a flat deck either, especially. Think his pace was just more inviting than Harmison's or Onion's. Jon Lewis wasn't a success in tests, so I don't think Davies, who's of similar pace if slightly taller, would be either.

Cue comment of judging players in televised games in 3...2...1.

 

[Richard]

Got badly carted in a game v Worcester Sky carried. Bowled 4 overs for 40-odd. Wasn't even a flat deck either, especially. Think his pace was just more inviting than Harmison's or Onion's. Jon Lewis wasn't a success in tests, so I don't think Davies, who's of similar pace if slightly taller, would be either.

I don't neccessarily think Davies would be a success in Tests. I simply think he's infinitely more likely to be than bowlers who can't even have much success at county level. Bowlers get smashed in the odd one-day game constantly - if such a thing precluded selection for a higher level, no bowler would ever make the step up.

As for Jon Lewis, not many have been successful in Tests when they've been given 1 game, at the age of 30 (or the best part of, I can't remember his exact DOB), to try. In fact, none have.

BTW, which vs-Worcs game was this? Wasn't in 2001 with Paul Pollard and Graeme Hick doing the smashing was it? As that was the last time I saw Davies, and he was a considerably lesser bowler then than now.

 

[King Pietersen]

Considering Graham Onions is mentioned, and he didn't debut until 2003, I doubt it was the 2001 game you've got in mind

Davies' numbers from the past few years of FC cricket are incredible. I'm surprised he's not been mentioned at all, I mean I'd have never even have thought of him as a possible Test candidate until seeing those stats. Nice to see that the 2 English bowlers with the best bowling averages in FC cricket last year are in the squad though, with Anderson top and Harmison 3rd, Langeveldt sandwiched between them.

Also, how about Jade Dernbach as a possible ODi candidate soon? Check his numbers from last year in List A cricket, they're impressive, and it's only his economy of just over 6 that slightly lets him down. Leading wicket-taker in List A's last season, certainly has potential.

 

[Woodster]

Also, how about Jade Dernbach as a possible ODi candidate soon? Check his numbers from last year in List A cricket, they're impressive, and it's only his economy of just over 6 that slightly lets him down. Leading wicket-taker in List A's last season, certainly has potential.

Jade Dernbach came on a lot last season, and showed good changes of pace in the one-day game, but I would be very sceptical in elevating him to international cricket so soon, lets see if he can back up his improvement in 2009 with another solid season first (or perhaps more improvement).

 

[Richard]

Also, how about Jade Dernbach as a possible ODi candidate soon? Check his numbers from last year in List A cricket, they're impressive, and it's only his economy of just over 6 that slightly lets him down. Leading wicket-taker in List A's last season, certainly has potential.

Will dig the more appropriate thread in order to continue this discussion - there's still a Test left in this tour and we shouldn't really be discussing the ODI side here right now.

 

[Uppercut]

Cricinfo - 1st unofficial Test: New Zealand A v England Lions at Queenstown, Mar 1-4, 2009

Notable for Davies' figures on an absolute road - 29-13-54-4

By all accounts I've read, that's actually quite an awkward batting surface. Trott and Patel got a great deal of credit in the report I was reading for that reason.

Jonathan Trott, another one that should surely be in the England ODI side.

 

[aussie]

Apart from the fact he's no different from typical English non-swing bowlers who would and constantly do get smoked on flat decks... what evidence is there that he'd go around the park on a flat deck? It seems more likely to me that he'd get circa 28-67-1 than 26-102-1.

You are probably right. He is likely to be fairly accurate, but not wicket-taking taking. England don't need such a bowler in the team.

The only quicks that should be considered for the Ashes once fit are the usual:

Flintoff
Anderson
Sidebottom
Harmison
Broad
Hoggard
Jones (if magic happens of course)

If we have to go beyond this list. BIG PROBLEMS!!!!

 

[inbox24]

What track is the 5th test going to be on? Don't tell me it's another flat tack one...

 

[TT Boy]

Why does Mark Davies never seem to even warrant a mention on this forum? Is it just the fact that he'll break down every three Tests or is there a deeper reason?

Because hardly anyone on here has ever seen him play. It is a bit hard to big a guy up when you don't even know for sure what he bowls - when Durham are on TV, Davies is nowhere to be seen.

His got some nice first class stats though and looks to have bowled well in the current A test between England and New Zealand.

 

[TT Boy]

Jade Dernbach came on a lot last season, and showed good changes of pace in the one-day game, but I would be very sceptical in elevating him to international cricket so soon, lets see if he can back up his improvement in 2009 with another solid season first (or perhaps more improvement).

He didn't have a solid season. He bowls most of the time gun barrel straight and the only thing of note he did was get carted for over 100 runs in a one day game and then duly get rewarded with a new contract. His cack but people like him because his quick and his got the Rana Naved habit of getting wickets with pies.

 

[Furball]

You are probably right. He is likely to be fairly accurate, but not wicket-taking taking. England don't need such a bowler in the team.

The only quicks that should be considered for the Ashes once fit are the usual:

Flintoff
Anderson
Sidebottom
Harmison
Broad
Hoggard
Jones (if magic happens of course)

If we have to go beyond this list. BIG PROBLEMS!!!!

Granted I've never seen Davies play, so he could just be a greentop bully for all I know, but IMO you cannot ignore someone whos First Class stats are as good as his.

 

[Richard]

You are probably right. He is likely to be fairly accurate, but not wicket-taking taking. England don't need such a bowler in the team.

Perhaps it'd be more accurate to say that they don't need such a bowler in the team if the surfaces are of a certain nature. If they seam, Davies could perfectly easily be both economical and wicket-taking.

The only quicks that should be considered for the Ashes once fit are the usual:

Flintoff
Anderson
Sidebottom
Harmison
Broad
Hoggard
Jones (if magic happens of course)

If we have to go beyond this list. BIG PROBLEMS!!!!

We've already got big problems if Harmison and, quite conceivably, Broad are involved.

Everyone knows Hoggard will not be, he's clearly not going to play Test cricket again barring an even bigger miracle than Jones being fit enough to; and Anderson is no guaranteed success story by any means.

Davies could perfectly easily be a better bet than plenty on that list, if the pitches are in the right condition.

 

[Flem274*]

By all accounts I've read, that's actually quite an awkward batting surface. Trott and Patel got a great deal of credit in the report I was reading for that reason.

Jonathan Trott, another one that should surely be in the England ODI side.

Queenstown is a bitch. Never had a proper test there, but 250 in an ODI is worth 300 in an ODI anywhere else. Its low, slow, not really nasty, but a bitch.

 

[Flem274*]

So yeah Mark Davies and another Englishman I think could/should be easily a better bowler than others you've picked is Charlie Shreck.