**Official** England in The West Indies

[Craig]

Another one is handing out the Maroon West Indies Cap in a Brown Paper bag to me is disrespectful when a player should earn it for a couple of seasons unlike Taylor, Edward, DR Smith etc.

 

[The Argonaut]

Surely if Collingwood is good enough and there are plenty who say he is then a spot must be found for him. Hussain may be a gritty fighter but does he score enough runs. I have always thought that England has carried a couple of guys who don't have the goods largely because there was no one better to bring along.

There is no doubting the class of Vaughan and Thorpe, and Butcher has improved in the last few years. Guys like Hussain and Trescothick shouldn't be there anymore. Now that Hussain is no longer captain it would be a good idea to give a younger guy a go. Trescothick has been found out and until he improves his play just outside of off stump then he should go.

The faster bowling has always had potential. Some of it is now being realised. Harmison with a bit of belief in himself is acquitting himself well and I've liked Anderson since the beginning. Anderson with a bit more experience will be a handful. Jones is being brought along nicely as well.

The spin department is still pretty bare. No one is really putting their hands up. Giles can be handy but if he didn't bat well for a no 8 then he would have to go.

Teh Windies just need someone strong to bring a bit of discipline to the team. the talent is there but I fear for their future in test cricket. teams just should not be bowled out for 50 and they're making a habit out of it.

 

[Craig]

I dont think you should go for youth just for the sake of it. Just because you are young and talented and contray to popular belief, doesnt mean you are certain walk up into the team.

If an older guy is getting the runs on the board or help save England from a potential hole, then he should stay.

If he werent contributing then he wont go anywhere. Plus I'm not surprised if Vaughan ever consults him for what he thinks.

 

[Craig]

I don't think Lara will be able to function at his best without the captaincy. Also, I think he'll captain the side even if he isn't captain.

When he played under Daren Ganga for T&T this season, he was constantly talking to Ganga and the bowlers.

Dont you think it is a vote of no-confidence for Ganga or for any other captain?

It is one thing for Ganga to have a chat with Lara and see what he thinks - but he could ask Lara or the new boy on the team - but for him trying to do Ganga or whoeover's job to me is a sign of no confidence.

Certaintly if I were Daren Ganga (and I'm not!) that's how I would feel.

 

[garage flower]

A pretty strong Carib Beer XI in action against England today. Be interesting to whether anyone can force their way into the test picture. I'm hoping for big performances from Bravo, Rampaul and Lawson in particular.

 

[tooextracool]

Surely if Collingwood is good enough and there are plenty who say he is then a spot must be found for him. Hussain may be a gritty fighter but does he score enough runs. I have always thought that England has carried a couple of guys who don't have the goods largely because there was no one better to bring along.

There is no doubting the class of Vaughan and Thorpe, and Butcher has improved in the last few years. Guys like Hussain and Trescothick shouldn't be there anymore. Now that Hussain is no longer captain it would be a good idea to give a younger guy a go. Trescothick has been found out and until he improves his play just outside of off stump then he should go.

agreed with you everywhere except when u say that hussain isnt good enough to be in the team. its not a question about how many runs he scores its about where and when he scores them. his innings have almost always come when england have needed them and when the conditions have favoured the bowlers as was the case in the first 2 tests against the west indies.
collingwood should be in the side..but in the place of trescothick but someones gonna hafta make the shift to the top...imo if butcher feels he can do it then he should

 

[tooextracool]

And then we lose the bloke who is gradually becoming our most reliable player.

Do not move Butch from 3!

for him to become our most reliable player he is going to hafta score big runs instead of his usual 50-60 that we're accustomed to seeing from him. more often he tends to throw it away rather than getting a good ball.

 

[luckyeddie]

for him to become our most reliable player he is going to hafta score big runs instead of his usual 50-60 that we're accustomed to seeing from him. more often he tends to throw it away rather than getting a good ball.

Any batsman who gets 'his usual 50-60' is good enough for me.

It strikes me that much of the criticism of England at the moment is just for the sake of it.

 

[garage flower]

It strikes me that much of the criticism of England at the moment is just for the sake of it.

Have patience Eddie. I'm sure they'll start to justify it soon.

 

[luckyeddie]

Have patience Eddie. I'm sure they'll start to justify it soon.

Very true, GF.

What goes around comes around. Unfortunately, in Australia's case, it takes for ever to do so, whereas England are only as good as their last performance.

(which in truth was pretty splendid)

 

[badgerhair]

Any batsman who gets 'his usual 50-60' is good enough for me.

It strikes me that much of the criticism of England at the moment is just for the sake of it.

It is also an interesting tactic to drop the player who is coming in for the most (albeit grudging) praise from the opposition and the opposition's fans on account of being the biggest thorn in their side.

I reckon that criticisms of Trescothick, Giles and Vaughan are makable without it being "just for the sake of it", because they have yet to deliver significantly on this tour in the disciplines for which they are mainly in the team. The reply may well be that you can't expect everyone to deliver every match and "don't rock the boat" and so on, but you don't have to be one of the army of success-hating England supporters to enter the odd qualm about those three.

By the way, where *are* Rik and Richard? I'm missing my doses of bile re Harmison being utterly useless and his wickets all being flukes and how him doing well is "bad for cricket".

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Mister Wright]

By the way, where *are* Rik and Richard? I'm missing my doses of bile re Harmison being utterly useless and his wickets all being flukes and how him doing well is "bad for cricket".

Cheers,

Mike

As far as I know Rik is away playing a gig.

 

[luckyeddie]

I reckon that criticisms of Trescothick, Giles and Vaughan are makable without it being "just for the sake of it", because they have yet to deliver significantly on this tour in the disciplines for which they are mainly in the team.

A little unfair on Giles, possibly - he's only bowled 22 overs in the tests - and he surprised many in Sri Lanka.

I've been more than a little concerned for almost a year over the form of Trescothick and Vaughan - and whereas Vaughan's tenure on the captaincy seems secure (and with it his place in the side) I would have no qualms about Tresco being left out. What I will not do, though, unlike many, is to write Trescothick off under the grounds of 'his weakness has been found out'.

 

[garage flower]

[B
I reckon that criticisms of Trescothick, Giles and Vaughan are makable without it being "just for the sake of it", because they have yet to deliver significantly on this tour in the disciplines for which they are mainly in the team. [/B]

What about Flintoff? I'm a fan of his and wouldn't advocate dropping him, but surely he can only get away with threatening to be a destructive batsman for so long, before he's required to actually deliver on a consistent basis.

If Clarke or Collingwood perform against the Carib Beer XI, they might start to put some pressure on big Freddie.

Just edited this having looked at the series stats from Sri Lanka (I'd criticized his lack of wickets as well). Didn't realise his bowling figures were so good over there, but I still think his batting needs to pick up quickly.

 

[luckyeddie]

What about Flintoff? I'm a fan of his and wouldn't advocate dropping him, but surely he can only get away with threatening to be a destructive batsman for so long, before he's required to actually deliver on a consistent basis.

6 years so far and counting....

In all seriousness, Flintoff was only described as an 'all-rounder' because he could hardly get away with the description 'batsman' or 'bowler' in his early days.

Of late, there has been a marked improvement, but all too often we still get the 'cameo' performance rather than the significant one.

 

[tooextracool]

Any batsman who gets 'his usual 50-60' is good enough for me.

It strikes me that much of the criticism of England at the moment is just for the sake of it.

its also the reason why england score 300 more often instead of scoring 400-500. i wouldnt mind it if someone like flintoff came in and scored 50-60 consistently as butcher does, but to see one of the best batsman in the english team score 50-60 is depressing. with trescothick getting his usual 30s,butcher getting 50-60s,hussain getting 60-70s and flintoff getting 40s it really means that thorpe and vaughan are left to score big runs otherwise the team will never really put up a big total.remember how we nearly lost to SA before thorpe came back and vaughan kept failing?its also one of the reasons why we lost the ashes to australia. much of this criticism may not appear to be valid against a team that is worse off than england but these things will come up again when we play against NZ at home.

carib beer XI is 72/1 against england with hoggard being the only wicket taker. daren ganga not out 24

 

[tooextracool]

carib beer XI are 87/4 at lunch. it looks like they just pulled of a west indies as anderson picks up 2 wickets and giles picks up his first.

 

[garage flower]

A little unfair on Giles, possibly - he's only bowled 22 overs in the tests - and he surprised many in Sri Lanka.

He's bowled poorly in this series though. As unthreatening as ever, depsite being gifted a couple of wickets at Sabina, and also a lot more expensive than usual (no right-handers to bowl a yard outside leg stump to).

I think there may be a decent case for replacing him with Collingwood. A batting line-up with Flintoff at 6 and Read at 7 will certainly be exposed by better bowling sides than the Windies (i.e. virtually every other test side) and I'm not sure you'd lose much with the ball (Vaughan and Collingwood could be used to relieve the 4 seamers - in a manner of speaking).

 

[Langeveldt]

By the way, where *are* Rik and Richard? I'm missing my doses of bile re Harmison being utterly useless and his wickets all being flukes and how him doing well is "bad for cricket".

Well, they did have a valid point... And now there point is becoming less valid I think they are keeping a low profile....

 

[tooextracool]

I think there may be a decent case for replacing him with Collingwood. A batting line-up with Flintoff at 6 and Read at 7 will certainly be exposed by better bowling sides than the Windies (i.e. virtually every other test side) and I'm not sure you'd lose much with the ball (Vaughan and Collingwood could be used to relieve the 4 seamers - in a manner of speaking).

im sure their bowling will come under scrutiny against NZ if they go in with only 4 front line bowlers. flintoff has done nothing of substance at all in test matches, harmison has really still got some way to go to prove himself,jones is still inexperienced and hoggard really struggles when the ball doesnt move about. england need a spinner in that squad, they need to find a suitable replacement for giles...batty is not even West indies class.