**Official** England in The West Indies

[tooextracool]

Well done England a Great 4th days play. Harmison was Lethal and got great Potenial to be the best quick in the World,

My rating

Trescothick: 6
Vaughan 7
Butcher 7
Hussain 6
Thorpe 6
Flintoff 6
Read 6
Giles 5
Jones 7
Harmison 9
Hoggard 7

can u explain to me why exactly u think tresco deserves 6 points???because he has a * against the number of runs scored in the 2nd innings or because he played his characteristic dab outside the off stump without moving his feet?his performance was nothing short of poor and it has been for a very long time but the english selectors dont seem to see it.
so hussain gets the same rating as tresco and vaughan gets a higher rating than hussain even though hussain was the top scorer in the english innings...he had to play a gutsy knock(which we're quite used to seeing from him) as when he came out edwards and best were firing from all cylinders. what did tresco or vaughan do?
from ur ratings it appears we have been watching 2 different matches.

here are the real ratings

tresco- 1/10(personally i think he should be replaced by collingwood...get butcher to open the batting)

vaughan - 6/10(captaincy points)

butcher- 8/10(good innings if only he wouldnt lose his concentration like that

hussain- 8/10(another one of those gutsy innings from the grumpy old man)

thorpe - 4/10(poor shot played..we saw a bit of this against the sri lankans too and he certainly appears to be losing that mental concentration that made him such a great player)

flintoff - 7/10(some good shots but the characteristic giving away his wicket that weve come to see from him. personally i think flintoff is a good player against pace and can be a useful cricketer in all places outside the subcontinent)

read-7/10(good work with the gloves and a decent 20 odd)

giles - 5/10(his performance was not as bad as people make it out to be...he was bowling on a first day pitch that offered more for the faster bowlers than for the spinners..cant blame him but he needs to bowl tighter-yes even if it means bowling that negative line because he really released the pressure and allowed smith and hinds to counter attack)

jones - 7/10 (decent performance..has potential)

harmison 9/10(well despite everyones continual criticism off his bowling i must say that he didnt bowl one bad ball in that second innings and im sure if he bowled that same way he bowled today against any other team he would get at least 3-4 wickets)

hoggard 8/10(his performance was largely underestimated...well bowled got some of the important wickets)

 

[tooextracool]

Is any channel in India showing this series? What about Ten Sport? I read they are. Or is ESPNSTAR going to show the matches after the series ends, or in the middle?

yes ten sports is showing this series..its a pity cause ten sports is showing pretty much all the cricket going on at the moment and these stupid cable operators dont pay up. no espnstar will never be able to show this series because they dont have the rights to do so, so cross ur fingers that u get ten sports before the series is up.

 

[tooextracool]

does anybody know where marlon samuels is?i thought he was a decent player...a lot better than some of the other players in the team(gayle etc).personally id like to see dwayne smith instead of sarwan and anybody instead of sanford. there was another decent bowler called darren powell who is deserves a chance...wonder what happened to him.

 

[SquidAU]

does anybody know where marlon samuels is?i thought he was a decent player...a lot better than some of the other players in the team(gayle etc).personally id like to see dwayne smith instead of sarwan and anybody instead of sanford. there was another decent bowler called darren powell who is deserves a chance...wonder what happened to him.

I think Marlon Samuels is injured? I am sure someone will clear that up!

A great win by the English though. Sad for the Windies, even though they apparently partied after the loss!!

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Andre brought up a very interisting point when I was talking to him earlier. What now for Harmison? Not many people are going to read past the figures, so immediately he's got amazing pressure put on him. What now? Will he carry on and become one of the best in the world (or at least damn good) like Ntini, or will he follow Brett Lee and many others on the path to under-achievement? At the end of his career we could quite easily see "...apart from his 7-12 against the West Indies he failed to scale such heights again." Now that he's done it he will be expected to perform a lot more, against a lot stronger teams, against batsmen who actually value their wickets. Let's see what happens. Best in the world or down that lonely path? I'm going for the latter, seems I'm not the only one.

Well he does have 3 more tests to go against the West Indies

 

[Rik]

No, because rather than fight a clearly losing battle, he's kept away from here...

Clearly loosing battle? Don't make me laugh! One good performance doth not a great make...certainly your not the only one jumping to conclusions too early, which is, quite amusingly, exactly what he doesn't need right now.

 

[Rik]

And you're one of them. Seriously, all you've done now is inflate my ego, by informing me that my knowledge is more accurate than 'well over a million' other people's.

As I've said, 'Hara' is stomach, 'Kiri' is cut. Gee, figure out how that works. I'm sure you're smart enough.

Harakiri - There's a dictionary definition for you.

Alternatively, you could look up the movie 'Harakiri' on Amazon.com.

Also Rik, I'm quite sure you're not noted for your spelling.

I was happy to explain it the first time, but now I've just had to prove myself right once and for all. :P

Look since I've never been over to Japan and I looked the spelling up on Google how do you expect my spelling to be perfect? Anyway my spelling is considerably better than most on this forum since I actually check it sometimes. It's well known that a computer course doesn't help you with your spelling but I think I get by, I'm certainly better than most people I know. Anyway if you want to boost your ego go here:

http://www.parida.com/seppuku.html should make you laugh, and http://dictionary.new-frontier.info/Hari-kari
Anyway I just saw people using "Hari Kari" and said to Neil that I thought the spelling was "Hari Kari" so exactly how is that an attack on you worthy of having to prove yourself again? Chill!

 

[badgerhair]

Andre brought up a very interisting point when I was talking to him earlier. What now for Harmison? Not many people are going to read past the figures, so immediately he's got amazing pressure put on him. What now? Will he carry on and become one of the best in the world (or at least damn good) like Ntini, or will he follow Brett Lee and many others on the path to under-achievement? At the end of his career we could quite easily see "...apart from his 7-12 against the West Indies he failed to scale such heights again." Now that he's done it he will be expected to perform a lot more, against a lot stronger teams, against batsmen who actually value their wickets. Let's see what happens. Best in the world or down that lonely path? I'm going for the latter, seems I'm not the only one.

So he's either got to be a world-beater who keeps coming out with magical performances or a one-hit wonder who disappears into obscurity, eh? No middle road for you, I see.

That, of course, makes it much easier for you to sit there and say "I told you so" when he doesn't take 7-12 ever again, despite the fact that 7-12 is the kind of off-the-scale performance which nobody has any right to expect from anyone in the days of covered wickets.

But that isn't the mundane world of practical cricket.

Players new to a Test team have a grace period in which their failures can be explained away by inexperience, nerves, etc. After a time, though, the excuses won't wash any longer and it is time to put up or push off.

With this performance, following as it does the 4-33 at The Oval v RSA and the 9 wickets for not many in a Test against the Bangles, Harmison has come of age, as it were. His performances from now on do not come with a safety net, water wings or rear-wheel stabilisers, but have to be judged against the standards which established players are expected to reach.

Handily, it has also reduced his career Test bowling average to 25.76, which is very much within the limits of acceptability. There are in fact less than 10 recognised Test bowlers around who have lower averages.

The question now is not whether Harmison will get any more 7-for-zilches but whether he will maintain a career average of 26 or under. He's never going to be used as a stock bowler to keep the batsmen quiet, so there won't be the kind of excuse one may be able to make for a Hoggard about his job being more to do with economy than wicket-taking: he will stand or fall on his ability to keep taking wickets at the kind of cost which strike bowlers take wickets.

He may never again reach the heights he reached yesterday, but if he plugs away steadily and keeps taking top order wickets and averaging in the mid-20s or better, he will be a valuable part of England's team.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Swervy]

Clearly loosing battle? Don't make me laugh! One good performance doth not a great make...certainly your not the only one jumping to conclusions too early, which is, quite amusingly, exactly what he doesn't need right now.

i take it we are talking about Harmison here....the thing is he also didnt need people jumping on his back when he wasnt bowling brilliantly.A lot of people have basically said he will never succeed at test level...well here you go,some more evidence that he does have the ability to succeed at test level (7for12 at any level is an amazing set of figures, no matter how poorly the batters played).

he did ok vs SA, he did well vs Bangladesh and now he has ripped apart the WI...he now averages under 26 in tests (when was the last time an England bowler did that),and yet he cannot make some people happy.

 

[Rik]

i take it we are talking about Harmison here....the thing is he also didnt need people jumping on his back when he wasnt bowling brilliantly.A lot of people have basically said he will never succeed at test level...well here you go,some more evidence that he does have the ability to succeed at test level (7for12 at any level is an amazing set of figures, no matter how poorly the batters played).

he did ok vs SA, he did well vs Bangladesh and now he has ripped apart the WI...he now averages under 26 in tests (when was the last time an England bowler did that),and yet he cannot make some people happy.

The last thing he needs is people suddenly thinking he's going to do this all the time when he got more than enough help from the West Indies batsmen. People said he never would and with most players that acts as a kick up the backside. And, to be fair, he wasn't performing well enough to keep his place without the average-lowering series against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Marc's saying he's proven he's world class, I'm saying don't jump to conclusions, it makes sense.

 

[Rik]

So he's either got to be a world-beater who keeps coming out with magical performances or a one-hit wonder who disappears into obscurity, eh? No middle road for you, I see.

Andre brought it up, I put forward my view. With 7-12 he can only go 2 ways, the pressure can push him to carry on or it can destroy him. Certainly it worked the right way on Shoaib and Ntini, and the wrong way on Brett Lee. Got any examples of hyped up bowlers staying in the middle road?

 

[Rik]

He may never again reach the heights he reached yesterday, but if he plugs away steadily and keeps taking top order wickets and averaging in the mid-20s or better, he will be a valuable part of England's team.

Cheers,

Mike

But how many bowlers do that? Gough certainly wasn't middle of the road, and do we really need another Caddick? If he can keep it up I'd be happy, but there are serious doubts that he will be able to, certainly if he keeps missing out the "Hard" series like Sri Lanka. As I've said so many times, let's just wait see and not jump to conclusions, but, unfortunately, certain members seem to think equates to bias, when really it's just common sense.

 

[Swervy]

The last thing he needs is people suddenly thinking he's going to do this all the time when he got more than enough help from the West Indies batsmen. People said he never would and with most players that acts as a kick up the backside. And, to be fair, he wasn't performing well enough to keep his place without the average-lowering series against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Marc's saying he's proven he's world class, I'm saying don't jump to conclusions, it makes sense.

no..the last thing he needs is people saying he didnt deserve his moment of glory. the people who will be dissapointed by harmison if he doesnt take a fivefer each innings are fools...but so are those who will jump on him if he takes no wickets next test match

 

[badgerhair]

Andre brought it up, I put forward my view. With 7-12 he can only go 2 ways, the pressure can push him to carry on or it can destroy him. Certainly it worked the right way on Shoaib and Ntini, and the wrong way on Brett Lee. Got any examples of hyped up bowlers staying in the middle road?

Darren Gough. Remember how he was going to be the saviour of English bowling, especially after 6-zilch against the Aussies at the SCG?

Bob Willis. Originally touted as the fastest bowler since Tyson, and possibly faster, and was usually thought of as a disappointment until he finally took 8-43 after a ten-year career.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Rik]

Darren Gough. Remember how he was going to be the saviour of English bowling, especially after 6-zilch against the Aussies at the SCG?

Bob Willis. Originally touted as the fastest bowler since Tyson, and possibly faster, and was usually thought of as a disappointment until he finally took 8-43 after a ten-year career.

Cheers,

Mike

Gough wasn't a middle of the road, he was England's best bowler and a geniune world-class bowler. Willis was a Caddick, for the most part a failure with a few amazing performances, probably the type of bowler I expect Harmison to turn out like, either that or like Caddick.

 

[Swervy]

Gough wasn't a middle of the road, he was England's best bowler and a geniune world-class bowler. Willis was a Caddick, for the most part a failure with a few amazing performances, probably the type of bowler I expect Harmison to turn out like, either that or like Caddick.

i am sure England will be chuffed to bits to have a bowler who takes 325 wickets like Willis did.

As for Gough...i dont think he truely would be considered right up there with the very best

 

[Rik]

no..the last thing he needs is people saying he didnt deserve his moment of glory. the people who will be dissapointed by harmison if he doesnt take a fivefer each innings are fools...but so are those who will jump on him if he takes no wickets next test match

It may be harsh but the West Indies contributed so heavily to his figures that yes we should all say well done but we shouldn't jump over the moon about this performance, since it involved so many poor shots you can't really tell how well he bowled. I wait with interist to see how well he bowls during this series, and I'm not about to jump on his back if he doesn't do well, but the last thing we need in here are people going OTT in other direction.

"the people who will be dissapointed by harmison if he doesnt take a fivefer each innings are fools..." Yeah well, The Sun and it's readers consistute a pretty large part of England's population...:rolleyes:

 

[Swervy]

"the people who will be dissapointed by harmison if he doesnt take a fivefer each innings are fools..." Yeah well, The Sun and it's readers consistute a pretty large part of England's population...:rolleyes:

hehehehe..indeed

 

[Rik]

i am sure England will be chuffed to bits to have a bowler who takes 325 wickets like Willis did.

As for Gough...i dont think he truely would be considered right up there with the very best

Definately they would, but it's not so hard to comprehend with the number of Tests played around the year these days. Willis was one of those bowlers who was allways there without anyone noticing, usually overshadowed by Botham, and occasionally pulled out a great performance. Kapil Dev didn't exactly have the best figures in the world but he played so many Tests that he took the then record number of wickets in Tests.

Gough, he wasn't one of the best in the world but he certainly wasn't middle of the road, a world class bowler who was getting better and better, unfortunately injuries took it out of him. There's a difference between best in the world, world class and average, Gough was world class.

 

[Arjun]

yes ten sports is showing this series..its a pity cause ten sports is showing pretty much all the cricket going on at the moment and these stupid cable operators dont pay up. no espnstar will never be able to show this series because they dont have the rights to do so, so cross ur fingers that u get ten sports before the series is up.

I might get Ten Sports after the India/Pakistan series is over, when that row may have cooled down. By the way, what's that cable fiasco scene like in Bangalore? Any better than here? We still don't get Ten, and we don't mind paying a little extra, they'd still do a better job than DD and its bad sound.