**Official** England in The West Indies

[twctopcat]

"Will" is a dangerous word in cricket.

Go on, allow yourself a glimmer of patriotism, and perhaps a slice of foolish optimism, you know you want to. It's not all about objective opinions.:P

 

[Richard]

So which of the 195 and 197 against India was the massive one, and which wasn't?

And the 145 against Aus (presuming the 177 and 183 to be the massive ones) and the 156 against South Africa were 20s and 30s, or were they "sod all" too?

Your carping opinions about the England players might have more credibility if they were based on fact, you kow.

I forgot the 156.
The 145 and the 183 against Aus were the ones I was referring to. The 195 against India the other.
Any others needed let-offs. And let-offs are fact.

absolutely right....richard u seem to have forgotten many of his finer knocks.at the moment he has 10 100s and 8 50s, more 100s than 50s, isnt that a hallmark of a great player?one who converts those 50s into not just 100s but big ones as most of his 100s have been.

No, the hallmark of a great player is a high average. However it's attained.

umm and why exactly would u want 70s and 80s??if one of ur top order batsmen doesnt go on to score a 100 then how are u going to win a test match?that was precisely the problem with england both against the australians and south africans, batsmen like butcher,hussain,white and stewart kept getting scores of 80 odd when they were set and thats why we never won either of those series. trescothick it seems kept getting 30 odd before his traditional knick to the slips

Centuries don't win Test-matches. Score size to make a contribution to a victory is always relative to the context of the match. Atherton and Vaughan's 40s were critical to wininng the critical Second Test of 2000.
We never won any of those series because good batsmen, like Butcher, Hussain, Stewart, White and Crawley underperformed. Not because they didn't score centuries, but because their averages were low. Anyway, the bowlers were mostly poor so the series wouldn't have been won anyway.

 

[Richard]

Go on, allow yourself a glimmer of patriotism, and perhaps a slice of foolish optimism, you know you want to. It's not all about objective opinions.:P

Patriotism is for fools. Optimism is for idiots. It'll only result in disappointment.
Opinions are formed without these biases on my part.

 

[twctopcat]

Patriotism is for fools. Optimism is for idiots. It'll only result in disappointment.
Opinions are formed without these biases on my part.

So be it you happy chappy.

 

[badgerhair]

I forgot the 156.
The 145 and the 183 against Aus were the ones I was referring to. The 195 against India the other.
Any others needed let-offs. And let-offs are fact.

Yes, they are, aren't they, as long as everyone agrees what was a chance and what was a screaming shot which would have ripped the fielder's hand off if he'd actually tried seriously to catch it
? And you have chanced upon this little statistic, which is mostly unverifiable after the fact, and based a huge edifice upon it for judging all batsmen.

I know you think it's terribly indicative, but I think it is, frankly, ollbocks.

"Luck you must have, all the time, in greater or lesser measure. In almost any hundred a cricketer makes there will be some element of luck; even in Bradman's centuries there was luck, though he gave fewer chances than most. In my experience it is seldom you can say of a batsman that he has scored a hundred runs and did not have one bit of good fortune. Certainly in my own case hardly any of my 122 centuries have been scored without a chance." - DCS Compton, "End of an Innings", 1958.

Let's just spell it out: if you had been around in the 40s and 50s, you would have been sitting there telling us that Denis Compton was crap because he kept giving all these chances.

Facts are facts, after all.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Swervy]

Vaughan has never convinced me when opeing the batting. He's scored 3 massive centuries (v India, Australia and Australia) and done basically sod-all besides, apart from that Kandy Test.
His first-chance scores when opening have been littered with 20s and 30s and no 70s and 80s.

Vaughan has scored 9 centuries(and 5 fifties) in 50 innings that he has opened the batting at an average of almost 52.

Some of his great performances whilst opening:

vs Sri Lanka at lords 64 (out of 275) and 115

vs India at Lords 100 in 141 balls in 50 overs going for quick runs

vs India at trent Bridge 197 from 285 balls in 81 overs

vs India at the oval 195 from 279 balls in 93 overs

vs Australia at Adelaide 177 from 306 balls (an england score of 342, when he was out the score was 4/295)

vs Australia at melbourne 145 in 218 balls (out of 236 scored whilst he was batting)

vs Australia at Sydney 183 in 278 balls

vs South Africa at Edgbaston 156 in 286 balls

vs Bangladesh 81* in 115 balls (ok it was only vs Bangladesh but who cares)

vs Sri Lanka at kandy 52 and 105 to help save the game.

Dont care about his first chance scores, that is a phenominal record as an opening bat vs some top class opposition

 

[tooextracool]

Let's just spell it out: if you had been around in the 40s and 50s, you would have been sitting there telling us that Denis Compton was crap because he kept giving all these chances.
Mike

hahha i can imagine richard in the 40s and 50s tellin us that dennis compton and don bradman were crap.

No, the hallmark of a great player is a high average. However it's attained.

no a great avg doesnt always tell us the true story. somebody maybe an absolute demon at home averaging 60 and/or against poultry opposition but away he may only be averaging 30, that still adds up to a grand average of 45. trescothick is a a perfect example of this , he fails against the quality attacks of australia ,south africa,and nz and then cashes in when he plays against bangladesh,zimbabwe,india,sri lanka(at home) and particularly at the oval where it seems half his runs come from. u fail to see that almost all of vaughans 100s have come at times when england have really needed them.

Centuries don't win Test-matches. Score size to make a contribution to a victory is always relative to the context of the match. Atherton and Vaughan's 40s were critical to wininng the critical Second Test of 2000.

true but on those australian wickets and in england in summer the pitches were good for scoring 400-500 in the first innings. sadly we only scored 300s. indias performances in australia in the test series have shown us the effects of scoring big as laxman and dravid scored. quite frankly indias attack was nothing better than englands bowling attack in australia.

first test
england top scorers: trescothick -72, butcher 54, crawley-69
australias top scorers: hayden 197 and 103,ponting 123

2nd test
england: vaughan 41 and 177, stewart:57, hussain 47,treco 35
australiaonting 154,martyn 95

3rd test
england:key 47,tresco 34,vaughan 34,stewart 66,hussain 61
australia: ponting 168,martyn 71,waugh 53

4th test
england: tresco 37 and 37, white 85 not out,vaughan 145,robert key 52
australia: langer 250,hayden 102,waugh 77

5th test
england:butcher 124,hussain 75,stewart 71,vaughan 183,hussain 72
australia:gilchrist 133,waugh 102


australia have 8 100s and 1 200
england have 4 100s(3 from vaughan)

not only does that show that vaughan has proved himself but it also shows that when the aussie players got starts they went on to score 100s. when the england players got starts they got 60s and 70s. it is vital in every test match that at least one of ur players gets a 100 and the rest play around him, im afraid that bar vaughan nobody else got the big scores required to put pressure on the aussies. its not surprising that when we got 2 hundreds in 1 test match we won!!
i put trescothick in most of those to show that he was clearly struggling not with form but with his temperament and technique,coz he got himself set and still failed.... look at the number of 30s and 40s there

 

[Prince EWS]

Go on, allow yourself a glimmer of patriotism, and perhaps a slice of foolish optimism, you know you want to. It's not all about objective opinions.:P

Yes it is. Who wants to listen to people ramble on about their teams if they dont really belive it? No-one.

You have to be as objective as possible when it comes to sport. Support your team with all your heart by all means, but dont let that effect your opinion.

 

[Rik]

You have to be as objective as possible when it comes to sport. Support your team with all your heart by all means, but dont let that effect your opinion.

Go Harmison! Harmison is GOD!

 

[Craig]

I would never throught I would hear you say that Rik :P :alien8:

 

[SquidAU]

I do think it is better to be realistic about your team's or individual's chances in any given sport. Although it is really hard sometimes not be a one eyed supporter!!

Getting back on topic, I think England could at least draw the series in the West Indies.....I don't think they can win it, but I have been proven wrong before.

 

[chris.hinton]

Come on England let win the Test Series i go with a all seam attack of Flintoff, Harminson, Hoggard, Jones and Anderson

 

[Neil Pickup]

No spinner.. interesting.

 

[tooextracool]

especially considering hes been the best bowler in the warm up games and that anderson has done nothing special.the pitches in the west indies are slow and will turn and if 3 seamers dont do the job i doubt the 4th would

 

[marc71178]

If England are bowling Giles at first change in the warm-up games (as has happened), I would imagine he's a certain.

In fact for me the only questions are the fitness of Butcher and Hoggard or Anderson.

 

[marc71178]

The West Indies have cut their 16 man squad to 13.

All pace attack from them, Baugh, Mohammed and Washington are out.

13 left:

Lara
Gayle
Smith
Smith
Chanderpaul
Hinds
Sarwan
Powell
Jacobs
Sanford
Best
Collymore
Edwards

Which 2 will miss out?

 

[tooextracool]

The West Indies have cut their 16 man squad to 13.

All pace attack from them, Baugh, Mohammed and Washington are out.

13 left:

Lara
Gayle
Smith
Smith
Chanderpaul
Hinds
Sarwan
Powell
Jacobs
Sanford
Best
Collymore
Edwards

Which 2 will miss out?

i would imagine hinds and powell considering there are only 4 bowlers in the squad and all 4 will play.
anybody know what happened to darren powell?he impressed me on his tour of india

 

[garage flower]

Apparently there's a doubt about the legality of Washington's action, which may have contributed to the decision to leave him out.

Given the sameness and ordinariness of the 4 remaining seamers, I'd prefer to see Dwayne Smith and Ryan Hinds included, with Sanford and Powell missing out. Otherwise it would be a very long tail and I would think Dwayne Smith and Ryan Hinds would be a good bet to take at least as many wickets (combined) as Sanford.

I hope Castro and Tino get their radars right or it could be deja vu all over again! (I knew I was going to say that)

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Given the sameness and ordinariness of the 4 remaining seamers, I'd prefer to see Dwayne Smith and Ryan Hinds included, with Sanford and Powell missing out. Otherwise it would be a very long tail and I would think Dwayne Smith and Ryan Hinds would be a good bet to take at least as many wickets (combined) as Sanford.

It's as ridiculous to go into a match with Ryan Hinds as a specialist spinner as to go in with Banks in that role. Hinds is not a good enough bowler to displace Sanford even. With the current 13, I'd prefer to see Sanford there and, has Smith not scored that hundred in the semis, I'd have wanted Hinds in for him.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

My prediction for the 1st Test:

Day 1 : Shocking performance by the Windies due to overconfidence. If we bat first, we collapse, if we bowl first we stray.
Day 2 : More discipline in the first session. If batting, we grind out 75 runs for the loss of 2 wickets. If bowling, we stick to line and length but don't really look threatening, yet we still claim 3-4 wickets.
Day 3 : Competitive from both teams.

That's all I see. I don't know what will happen on the last two days, but I expect either an England victory or a draw. That may change before the toss though.