***Official*** England in Pakistan

[Beleg]

My Pakistan XI for the first test:


1. Shoaib Malik (since they are so determined to play him)
2. Salman Butt
3. Yo Yo
4. Inzamam
5. Younis Khan
6. Asim Kamal
7. Kamran Akmal
8. Shahid Afridi
9. Shoaib Akhtar
10. Kaneria
11. Shabbir Ahmad

You have 2 leggies and 1 offie in that line-up along with two geniune pacer. With Shahid Afridi coming at eight the batting line-up is fairly strong as well.
I am sorry, but there just isn't any place for Hassan Raza in the middle-order. Maybe if Asim Kamal fails in a couple of tests...

 

[wpdavid]

True but I always find it a slightly ridiculous argument when I hear that Giles, whilst generally ordinary, is very good on spinning wickets.

For mine, it's like saying that a certain fast bowler is ordinary under "normal" conditions but excellent on a green-top. I mean, what fast bowler isnt?

The true test of anyone is how they perform when conditions are against them not when everything is in your favour.

I can think of several england spinners who haven't done well in helpful conditons, so we're quite happy to have one that can actually do well in Asia. Also, if you compare Giles' figures in Pakistan last time around, and also in SL a couple of years back, his performance compares well with almost all of the oppositions spinners apart from Murali. And maybe Saqlain, although he was still a seriously class act 5 years ago.

 

[wpdavid]

Which is why they will have such an influence, no? Surely whether they let Pakistan get to 80/0 or 50-odd/2 after the first 15 in unhelpful conditions will have a large effect on which way the match swings?

Oh, I see. Well, fair enough, but I suppose you could take that approach to the whole side and give everyone high marks.

 

[Beleg]

And maybe Saqlain, although he was still a seriously class act 5 years ago.

Who? Saqlain or Giles?

 

[Scaly piscine]

3. Bell
4. KP
5. Collingwood

This the worst middle-order at the moment barring Bangas and Zims though there is the "BIG" Freddie Factor at 6.

Hey if you think that's bad, just look at this:


4. Martyn
5. Clarke
6. Katich

Although granted that was a few months ago.

 

[social]

I can think of several england spinners who haven't done well in helpful conditons, so we're quite happy to have one that can actually do well in Asia. Also, if you compare Giles' figures in Pakistan last time around, and also in SL a couple of years back, his performance compares well with almost all of the oppositions spinners apart from Murali. And maybe Saqlain, although he was still a seriously class act 5 years ago.

Helpful conditions are a great leveller.

A more accurate reflection of Giles standing is to compare his returns in the Ashes series with Warne's.

 

[social]

Hey if you think that's bad, just look at this:


4. Martyn
5. Clarke
6. Katich

Although granted that was a few months ago.

Bell - unproven
KP - unproven
Colly - unproven

Martyn - amonggst the top 3 players of the previous 18 months
Clarke - ave 40 +
Katich - ave 40 +

Obviously youre trying to make the point that the Aus selectors dont put up with failure as readily as their English counterparts.

I actually hope Bell scores some runs in this series as the English selectors have done him no favours by batting him predominantly down the order on this tour before throwing him in at 3 when trouble is on the horizon. They also sacrificed him in the last Ashes test when even blind freddy could see that he was shots to bits before the Oval.

 

[wpdavid]

Helpful conditions are a great leveller.

A more accurate reflection of Giles standing is to compare his returns in the Ashes series with Warne's.

I think we all knew that Giles isn't in the same class as Warne, to be fair.

My point about the Pakistan & SL series is that he actually did rather better than most of the local lads, so it wasn't just a case of the pitches being a leveller. And you still have to be good enough to make use of conditions which, IIRC, weren't ridiculously in favour of spinners. Certainly not in the same category of the India/Aus test where Clarke took a truckload, for example.

 

[wpdavid]

Who? Saqlain or Giles?

Saqlain was still a class act in 2000, no? Giles was and is an honest pro who makes the most of what he's got. Of course, he still outperformed any other English spinner's performance in Pakistan 5 years ago, which deserves rather more credit than some would like to give him.

 

[William]

Clarke - ave 40 +
Katich - ave 40 +

Not after the Ashes they didn't

 

[luckyeddie]

Helpful conditions are a great leveller.

A more accurate reflection of Giles standing is to compare his returns in the Ashes series with Warne's.

Interesting that you advocate comparing Giles to Warne during the Ashes series, yet in your very next post you sing the praises of Australia's failed journeyman middle order plodders by looking at their performances outside the Ashes series (career or 'previous 18 months').

Suits you, sir. ( )

 

[aussie]

well Vaughan is out so Bell well definately play, good luck to him he may well and score runs and surprise a few....

 

[Hazza]

KP - unproven

I disagree with this statement. If someone like Kevin Pietersen can score as heavily as he did versus Australia, as well as playing some vital innings in one day internationals, he must surely have proven himself? He may not be the most experienced player in the England side but just because of that it does not mean he isn't proven.

 

[tooextracool]

Well its not guaranteed Strauss will miss the last test? but i do believe Pietersen opened for England A when he hit 3 centuries vs India a few years ago. Could be a good shout

whether its guaranteed or not, England were going to bring in someone who could actually open the batting, instead of having to fly in another replacement after Strauss left. That ruled out Joyce as an option.

 

[tooextracool]

The England pacers are not incapable of bowling in less seamer friendly conditions when they toured the West Indies.

the tracks in the WI were actually seamer friendly, which is why Harmison ended up with godly figures.

But it has to be kept in mind that Pakistan are likely to go in with Kaneria and Mushtaq. Would they prefer a spinning low bounce track or one with more purchase off the wicket? Kaneria for one would prefer some extra bounce.

are they really going to go in with Kaneria and Mushtaq? you can almost guarantee that Malik will play(and Afridi might too) and i'd think that if the wicket offered something for the seamers, 2 spinners would be more than enough.

 

[Kweek]

Im pretty happy they called up Cook, I reckon he's a biiiig talent. and this will surely learn him alot. hope he gets a shot.

 

[tooextracool]

If you mean a general marks out of ten for likely impact on the series, then it's probably as follows:

England:
1. ME Trescothick - 9
2. AJ Strauss - 8
3. IR Bell - 5
4. KP Pietersen - 8
5. PD Collingwood - 7
6. A Flintoff - 10
7. GO Jones - 7
8. AF Giles - 8
9. SD Udal - 7
10. MJ Hoggard - 9
11. SJ Harmison - 8

Pakistan:
1. Shoaib Malik - 7
2. Salman Butt - 5
3. Younis Khan - 7
4. Inzamam-Ul-Haq - 9
5. Mohammad Yousuf - 8
6. Asim Kamal - 7
7. Kamran Akmal - 6
8. Mushtaq Ahmed - 8
9. Rana Naved-Ul-Hasan - 7
10. Shoaib Akhtar - 9
11. Danish Kaneria - 9

geraint and udal get the same score as kamal, good joke......
and i'd think you're being way to generous wihth hoggard.

 

[tooextracool]

True but I always find it a slightly ridiculous argument when I hear that Giles, whilst generally ordinary, is very good on spinning wickets.

For mine, it's like saying that a certain fast bowler is ordinary under "normal" conditions but excellent on a green-top. I mean, what fast bowler isnt?

The true test of anyone is how they perform when conditions are against them not when everything is in your favour.

the argument is that giles needs some assistance from the wicket to take wickets as opposed to a raging turner. and every pace bowlers needs some assistance either from the wicket or from the conditions to take wickets in test match cricket.

 

[tooextracool]

Helpful conditions are a great leveller.

A more accurate reflection of Giles standing is to compare his returns in the Ashes series with Warne's.

which would be about as useless as comparing Jones to gillespie in that series.

 

[tooextracool]

I disagree with this statement. If someone like Kevin Pietersen can score as heavily as he did versus Australia, as well as playing some vital innings in one day internationals, he must surely have proven himself? He may not be the most experienced player in the England side but just because of that it does not mean he isn't proven.

and how many times must it be said? ODIs have no direct relation to test match cricket except when it comes to determining form. hes had 1 good series, which would have been ordinary if australia could catch.