***Official*** England in Pakistan

[tooextracool]

I can't think of too many - 281 v the Aussies obiously, he played very very well on the tour of Australia 03/04, and was instrumental in their victory with a 1st Innings century, and played a match-winning 107 against Pakistan in 2004. I may be forgetting some. Another one of Laxman's problems has been consistency - mixes mediocrity with thos math-winning innings a lot of the time.

the 107 was in the last ODI of the pakistan series if im not mistaken.
'great' is a lose term, are you referring to matchwinning, match influencing or just quality innings under pressure?
and yes i agree with you on the last sentence, in that laxman is either brilliant or mediocre, but at least on his day hes capable of destroying any opposition anywhere in the world.

 

[Tom Halsey]

By 'great' I mean match-changing, under pressure.

 

[Barney Rubble]

As far as I'm concerned there was far more pressure on KP's 150-odd than there was on Laxman's 281. There was an expectation that England would win their first Ashes in the best part of 2 decades during KP's innings and the knowledge that he could be the key to the game and therefore the series. When Laxman hit his 281 there wasn't that much expectation from an Indian perspective, India were 1-0 down and following on 274 runs behind and the best part of 3 days left, India had almost pretty much lost already - so the pressure was off until they got back to a competitive position.

It's my personal opinion that no cricketer has ever been under as much pressure as KP was under during that innings. Not in the entire history of the game. The greatest Test series of all time coming to an end, two nations having been on tenterhooks for two months, two of the greatest bowlers of all time bowling in tandem, plus two lads hurling it down at 90-95mph, and the chance for a fairly fledgling international career to be made or broken, by a man playing for an adopted country whose inhabitants have put him under constant pressure to perform from the day he pulled on the blue and red shirt instead of a green and yellow one - if he got out early, the Ashes were almost lost. Put quite simply, he couldn't get out. Staying there was the priority - so he promptly went and launched an assault brutal proportions on any bowling he could find. The most astonishing innings I have ever seen, and probably ever will see - I only saw highlights of Laxman's, but whilst it may have been a better innings, it wasn't played in the cauldron of intensity KP's occurred in.

 

[PY]

Whoa, calm down mate. Think you're being influence by the fact you were there.

He did get dropped a couple of times don't forget!

 

[Tom Halsey]

There's no way he was under the most pressure ever. A lot, but not the most ever.

 

[luckyeddie]

Whoa, calm down mate. Think you're being influence by the fact you were there.

He did get dropped a couple of times don't forget!

Saying that, I have racked my brain and I cannot come up with another innings like it under similar circumstances - well, not in the last 40 years anyway. Even Botham's knock gets a 'meh' compared to that incredible innings for the sheer audacity of it.

 

[Barney Rubble]

Saying that, I have racked my brain and I cannot come up with another innings like it under similar circumstances - well, not in the last 40 years anyway. Even Botham's knock gets a 'meh' compared to that incredible innings for the sheer audacity of it.

Exactly - the pressure on him was multiplied by the way he decided to play. He did anything but take the safe route.

And if that wasn't the most pressure ever (over an extended period of time - we're not talking about last-ball World Cup matches, that pressure doesn't last for long), then name some contenders?

 

[Barney Rubble]

Whoa, calm down mate. Think you're being influence by the fact you were there.

Yeah, I am - I could feel exactly how intense the atmosphere was, even in the crowd. Being out in the middle would have been unbearable.

 

[Beleg]

then name some contenders?

Just a couple from the matches I have seen in the last five/six years.

Wasim Akram and Saqlain Mushtaq, bowling at the end of the fourth innings in Banglore '99, first test played between the two teams after a ten year haitus. You had to be in Pakistan to truly appreciate the political and social tension besieging the population and the weight of the expectation on the cricket team - from the prime minister to the lowest factory worker.

In the same game, Sachin Tendulkar from the opposition. Scored a century when India seemed out of it. Perhaps the best batting display I have even witnessed.


In most cases, the 'greatness' of a certain innings is directly proptional to one's personal involvement. The particular KP knock might well be the greatest innings ever played from your prespective, owing to you being there and totally into it; you just have to realize that others might hold a similar opinion about certain other innings due to a plethora of reasons.

As long as those innings/performances meet a certain general standard and nonwithstanding the presecene of a clear-cut criteria, their listing in any order is bound to be purely subjective.

 

[luckyeddie]

In most cases, the 'greatness' of a certain innings is directly proptional to one's personal involvement.

Very sensible response, and one I have no intention of disagreeing with.

I don't think that Pietersen's innings was 'great' by any stretch of the imagination, though.

I think it was unique.

 

[shankar]

Just a couple from the matches I have seen in the last five/six years.

Wasim Akram and Saqlain Mushtaq, bowling at the end of the fourth innings in Banglore '99, first test played between the two teams after a ten year haitus. You had to be in Pakistan to truly appreciate the political and social tension besieging the population and the weight of the expectation on the cricket team - from the prime minister to the lowest factory worker.

In the same game, Sachin Tendulkar from the opposition. Scored a century when India seemed out of it. Perhaps the best batting display I have even witnessed.

That match was in Chennai, actually and I was there. Another point is that Sachin played that innings through excruciating back pain.

 

[tooextracool]

By 'great' I mean match-changing, under pressure.

assuming you mean 'match influencing' innings under pressure,
i'd say his 66 in the final test of the 2001 series was match changing and under pressure, along with his 75 in barbados, his 104* and 67* against NZ and his 148 at adelaide. i cant see too many other good players playing as many great innings either.

 

[social]

As far as I'm concerned there was far more pressure on KP's 150-odd than there was on Laxman's 281. There was an expectation that England would win their first Ashes in the best part of 2 decades during KP's innings and the knowledge that he could be the key to the game and therefore the series. When Laxman hit his 281 there wasn't that much expectation from an Indian perspective, India were 1-0 down and following on 274 runs behind and the best part of 3 days left, India had almost pretty much lost already - so the pressure was off until they got back to a competitive position.

I was going to say that "KP responded to the pressure by offering a no. of chances blah, blah, blah"

However, rather than do that, I simply suggest that you get a tape of Laxman's innings. It is rightly regarded as one of the greatest ever played, as is his 160-odd at Sydney on a seaming wicket.

BTW, the 2 Aus-India series in India were 2 of the most important series played of late, were watched by more people than were the Ashes, and certainly had as much pressure for an Indian, as the Ashes.

 

[social]

It's my personal opinion that no cricketer has ever been under as much pressure as KP was under during that innings. Not in the entire history of the game. The greatest Test series of all time coming to an end, two nations having been on tenterhooks for two months, two of the greatest bowlers of all time bowling in tandem, plus two lads hurling it down at 90-95mph, and the chance for a fairly fledgling international career to be made or broken, by a man playing for an adopted country whose inhabitants have put him under constant pressure to perform from the day he pulled on the blue and red shirt instead of a green and yellow one - if he got out early, the Ashes were almost lost. Put quite simply, he couldn't get out. Staying there was the priority - so he promptly went and launched an assault brutal proportions on any bowling he could find. The most astonishing innings I have ever seen, and probably ever will see - I only saw highlights of Laxman's, but whilst it may have been a better innings, it wasn't played in the cauldron of intensity KP's occurred in.

Settle down.

Good innings? - yes

Great? - not by any stretch of the imagination.

Pressure? Immense but with provisos

Firstly, the guy's a transplanted South African playing for England, a country where he's only lived for a couple of years. Furthermore, he moved to Eng to further his professional career not because he suddenly developed an affinity with the Yorkshire Dales, WBA or scampi. KP is all about KP.

Secondly, he hardly responded well to the pressure. He should have been out 3 times before 20.

Thirdly, a large proportion of his innings was played under minimal pressure as time had beaten Aus.

Laxman had to play under as much pressure for 2 days for his own country and responded with a faultless innings against a better bowling attack in worse batting conditions.

 

[Scaly piscine]

I was going to say that "KP responded to the pressure by offering a no. of chances blah, blah, blah"

However, rather than do that, I simply suggest that you get a tape of Laxman's innings. It is rightly regarded as one of the greatest ever played, as is his 160-odd at Sydney on a seaming wicket.

BTW, the 2 Aus-India series in India were 2 of the most important series played of late, were watched by more people than were the Ashes, and certainly had as much pressure for an Indian, as the Ashes.

I'm not arguing what innings was better, simply the pressure involved. A team that's got nothing more to lose is under very little pressure, a team that's on the verge of a huge achievement like regaining the Ashes for the first time in nearly 2 decades is under massive pressure.

As for Laxman's innings "against a better bowling attack in worse batting conditions" - rubbish.

 

[Sanz]

Which is a better attack :-

1. Mcgrath, Warne, Gillespie, Kaspa
2. Mcgrath, Warne, Lee, Fleming
3. Mcgrath (half fit), Lee, Tait, Warne.

 

[luckyeddie]

Settle down.

Good innings? - yes

Great? - not by any stretch of the imagination.

Pressure? Immense but with provisos

Firstly, the guy's a transplanted South African playing for England, a country where he's only lived for a couple of years. Furthermore, he moved to Eng to further his professional career not because he suddenly developed an affinity with the Yorkshire Dales, WBA or scampi. KP is all about KP.

Secondly, he hardly responded well to the pressure. He should have been out 3 times before 20.

Thirdly, a large proportion of his innings was played under minimal pressure as time had beaten Aus.

Laxman had to play under as much pressure for 2 days for his own country and responded with a faultless innings against a better bowling attack in worse batting conditions.

Much of what you write is true, but some of it is coming across as the sourest of sour grapes - I hope that's not the case because I really respect your opinions*.

As for time beating Australia, that would not have happened without the hundred or so Pietersen had notched up before tea.

My main point, though, is that three people (SP, BR and me) have mentioned Pietersen's innings as being 'remarkable' or words to such effect, yet you appear to be refuting it as not being 'great' - a different thing entirely.








*

 

[aussie]

The guy averages 43.71, for someone that plays nearly half of their games in India that's decidedly average.

now how is a 43 average for a player who plays most of his matches at home bad??, dont see how...

 

[luckyeddie]

I was going to say that "KP responded to the pressure by offering a no. of chances blah, blah, blah"

You? Resort to sour grapes? Never.

(see my previous post, responding to your following one)

 

[aussie]

oh come off it, KP isnt even a proven player at the test match level, and if it werent for those 3 dropped catches he would have come out with a mediocre ashes series.

yes that right TEC, this arguement is getting out of hand. Has i said the last young batsman to have an outstanding debut series (Michael Clarke) since has been brought down to earth, so saying he better than an established test match player is ludacris...