**Official** England in New Zealand

[Athlai]

IMO Southee has more wicket taking potential than any of those others you've named their Phlegm. Lets not look at this from a statistics point of view, or from the view of he's just a kid. But as the view from who is the best bowler in the country right now to replace Mills/Franklin/Bond as a wicket taker, and the answer is Southee.

The people who expect the best from him may be disappointed but I have no problem playing a very good swing bowler who can bat a bit in my team, regardless of age.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Bring back O'Diren instead!

Could use the ignore list, but instead I'll just

 

[Neil Pickup]

Yeah, that's the one. That then brings you to the dodgy situation where you have a top-drawer keeper (at Exeter U12 last year, our keeper stood up to all but one bowler), or one who you never told standing back was an option (currently working on the Czech lad who's first-choice goalkeeper, with very promising initial results).

 

[BoyBrumby]

I think the dangers of blooding a promising youngster on a road are obvious, but despite his youth Southee might well be the best option available. The figures he returned from the U19 world cup are pretty special. One would hope even if he is hammered (& it's a big if, what with our top six's inability to convert starts) he'd have enough about him to take it on the chin.

Broad doesn't seem to have let becoming the first seam-up bowler to be smacked for six maximums in an over faze him overly & he's only a couple or three years older.

 

[Goughy]

Yeah they don't succeed much either but their success ratio with teenagers is much better than the rest of the world

TBH, their success ratio may only better as they are essentially the only ones that do it.

This is a list of the players 18 or under on Test debut over the last 20 years.

One pattern is clear and that is the vast majority of young debutants are from the subcontinent. Also, that for supposedly super talented players that demand to be selected so early they are not particularly successful.

Apart from a couple of names, the majority are ordinary cricketers. In fact NZ may have the best record in converting young debuts to decent cricketers compared to anyone else on the list.

Apart from occasional 'once in a generation' players, selecting young teens is usually the preserve of the desperate.

Player		Age		Team		Opposition	Ground		Match Date	Scorecard
Tamim Iqbal	18y 290d	Bangladesh	v New Zealand	Dunedin		4-Jan-08	Test # 1859
Mushfiqur Rahim	16y 267d	Bangladesh	v England	Lord's		26-May-05	Test # 1751
Shahadat Hossain18y 292d	Bangladesh	v England	Lord's		6-May-05	Test # 1751
Nazmul Hossain	17y 73d		Bangladesh	v India		Chittagong (MAA)17-Dec-04	Test # 1727
Aftab Ahmed	18y 351d	Bangladesh	v New Zealand	Chittagong (MAA)26-Oct-04	Test # 1717
Nafees Iqbal	18y 354d	Bangladesh	v New Zealand	Dhaka		19-Oct-04	Test # 1715
Enamul Haque	16y 320d	Bangladesh	v England	Dhaka		21-Oct-03	Test # 1665
Anwar Hossain	18y 363d	Bangladesh	v West Indies	Dhaka		8-Dec-02	Test # 1630
Alok Kapali	18y 208d	Bangladesh	v Sri Lanka	Colombo (SSC)	28-Jul-02	Test # 1611
Tushar Imran	18y 220d	Bangladesh	v Sri Lanka	Colombo (SSC)	28-Jul-02	Test # 1611
Talha Jubair	16y 223d	Bangladesh	v Sri Lanka	Colombo (PSS)	21-Jul-02	Test # 1609
Mashrafe Mortaza18y 34d		Bangladesh	v Zimbabwe	Dhaka		8-Nov-01	Test # 1566
Mohammad Ashraful17y 61d	Bangladesh	v Sri Lanka	Colombo (SSC)	6-Sep-01	Test # 1561
Mohammad Sharif	15y 128d	Bangladesh	v Zimbabwe	Bulawayo	19-Apr-01	Test # 1543
Ranjan Das	18y 119d	Bangladesh	v India	Dhaka			10-Nov-00	Test # 1512
I Sharma	18y 265d	India		v Bangladesh	Dhaka (SBNS)	25-May-07	Test # 1833
Piyush Chawla	17y 75d		India		v England	Mohali		9-Mar-06	Test # 1788
PA Patel	17y 152d	India		v England	Nottingham	8-Aug-02	Test # 1612
Harbhajan Singh	17y 265d	India		v Australia	Bangalore	25-Mar-98	Test # 1413
SR Tendulkar	16y 205d	India		v Pakistan	Karachi		15-Nov-89	Test # 1127
DL Vettori	18y 10d		New Zealand	v England	Wellington	6-Feb-97	Test # 1354
Yasir Ali	17y 323d	Pakistan	v Bangladesh	Multan		3-Sep-03	Test # 1658
Salman Butt	18y 331d	Pakistan	v Bangladesh	Multan		3-Sep-03	Test # 1658
Imran Farhat	18y 292d	Pakistan	v New Zealand	Auckland	8-Mar-01	Test # 1533
Qaiser Abbas	18y 192d	Pakistan	v England	Lahore		15-Nov-00	Test # 1513
Irfan Fazil	18y 131d	Pakistan	v Sri Lanka	Karachi		12-Mar-00	Test # 1489
Imran Nazir	17y 78d		Pakistan	v Sri Lanka	Lahore		4-Mar-99	Test # 1447
Shahid Afridi	18y 235d	Pakistan	v Australia	Karachi		22-Oct-98	Test # 1427
Fazl-e-Akbar	17y 129d	Pakistan	v South Africa	Durban		26-Feb-98	Test # 1403
Hasan Raza	14y 227d	Pakistan	v Zimbabwe	Faisalabad	24-Oct-96	Test # 1337
Shahid Nazir	18y 318d	Pakistan	v Zimbabwe	Sheikhupura	17-Oct-96	Test # 1336
Shadab Kabir	18y 256d	Pakistan	v England	Lord's		25-Jul-96	Test # 1330
Saleem Elahi	18y 353d	Pakistan	v Australia	Brisbane	9-Nov-95	Test # 1311
Saqlain Mushtaq	18y 253d	Pakistan	v Sri Lanka	Peshawar	8-Sep-95	Test # 1304
Ata-ur-Rehman	17y 68d		Pakistan	v England	Birmingham	4-Jun-92	Test # 1189
Zahid Fazal	17y 5d		Pakistan	v West Indies	Karachi		15-Nov-90	Test # 1154
Aaqib Javed	16y 189d	Pakistan	v New Zealand	Wellington	10-Feb-89	Test # 1115
PR Adams	18y 340d	South Africa	v England	Port Elizabeth	26-Dec-95	Test # 1320
CM Bandara	18y 147d	Sri Lanka	v New Zealand	Colombo (RPS)	27-May-98	Test # 1415
DNT Zoysa	18y 298d	Sri Lanka	v New Zealand	Dunedin		7-Mar-97	Test # 1358
JE Taylor	18y 363d	West Indies	v Sri Lanka	Gros Islet	20-Jun-03	Test # 1648
AG Cremer	18y 109d	Zimbabwe	v Bangladesh	Chittagong (MAA)6-Jan-05	Test # 1733
E Chigumbura	18y 53d		Zimbabwe	v Sri Lanka	Harare		6-May-04	Test # 1698
BRM Taylor	18y 90d		Zimbabwe	v Sri Lanka	Harare		6-May-04	Test # 1698
T Panyangara	18y 198d	Zimbabwe	v Sri Lanka	Harare		6-May-04	Test # 1698
H Masakadza	17y 352d	Zimbabwe	v West Indies	Harare		27-Jul-01	Test # 1553
T Taibu		18y 66d		Zimbabwe	v West Indies	Bulawayo	19-Jul-01	Test # 1551
HK Olonga	18y 212d	Zimbabwe	v Pakistan	Harare		31-Jan-95	Test # 1285

 

[silentstriker]

That's a great list Goughy. I am actually surprised India only has that many - I thought we had a few more. I wrote a very long post a while back analyzing all the young debutants from India, and how there was only one big success (SRT), and the rest were not only unsuccessful at the time, but most went on to have bad careers at the international level and were ordinary even at the FC level.

Don't ruin them early! Let them grow and learn what professional cricket means, how to prepare for a long season, how to keep fit, how to handle the stresses and responsibilities that come not only with adulthood, but with professional cricket overall.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

That's a great list Goughy. I am actually surprised India only has that many - I thought we had a few more. I wrote a very long post a while back analyzing all the young debutants from India, and how there was only one big success (SRT), and the rest were not only unsuccessful at the time, but most went on to have bad careers at the international level and were ordinary even at the FC level.

255 Test wickets @ 31 with two man of the series awards, including one in a series against a team with 16 wins in a row. So rubbish.

Pakistan's the one with a really rubbish record. 16 players, of which only Saqlain was reasonably successful in Tests. Maybe Afridi if you're kind, but he's never become a regular fixture.

 

[sportychic33]

Oram's out of the Third Test with a Hip injury.
Elliot to take his place.
Suprise Suprise, Oram's injury was bound to happen.

 

[NZTailender]

The Great New Zealand Injury Machine is still going strong it seems.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Oram's out of the Third Test with a Hip injury.
Elliot to take his place.
Suprise Suprise, Oram's injury was bound to happen.

Over bowling i guess, but can you blame them? he was bowling so well it would be hard to not use him. Great news for England though.

 

[Flem274*]

****!!!

Its amazing how many players the great NZ injury machine takes from us. I did a list a while back in another thread (Richard go find it please ) and I was amazed at the amount of players that could still have been playing for us last year. Along with players retiring early, until we sort out these god damn injuries we will be severely limited in our attempts to field our best side consistently and we'll need to do that in order to climb up the rankings.

Rant over.

 

[Flem274*]

IMO Southee has more wicket taking potential than any of those others you've named their Phlegm. Lets not look at this from a statistics point of view, or from the view of he's just a kid. But as the view from who is the best bowler in the country right now to replace Mills/Franklin/Bond as a wicket taker, and the answer is Southee.

The people who expect the best from him may be disappointed but I have no problem playing a very good swing bowler who can bat a bit in my team, regardless of age.

He might be potentialy the best, but we shouldn't select him for instant gratification. Think of it as getting a loan from a loanshark for a good or saving up then buying it. The loan will make you feel good now but in the future there is a good chance it will bite you in the ass. Wheras saving up and putting some effort into getting it will ensure happiness without the cost.

With Tim Southee the selectors are going to the loanshark, they want a short term easy to get solution without worrying about what might happen later. Playing a kid now can result in:

-Mental destruction
-Major injury
-Total failure

Debut him when he's older, fully grown, more experienced and has the record behind him. He'll have a much higher chance of success then.

 

[Days of Grace]

Debuting him now will avoid him playing in the NZ domestic competion for three years and thus resorting to mediocrity...

 

[vic_orthdox]

Playing a kid now can result in:

d. Winning the next Test match.

 

[jeevan]

Captain Vettori should well suited to consider the debut of a teenage bowler in a home test against England. Is also his story, a decade ago.

 

[Craig]

What a nice birthday present Grant Elliott has got, a New Zealand Test cap. How good is he considering I've never seen him play?

I know he has gone to the ICL and every cricket board is scared of the BCCI, but New Zealand should of kept Andre Adams around or given him the assurance he was in the frame because he did well on his only Test appearence and IIRC he had been taking wickets at a nice average for Auckland as well. Some people might judge him on his ODI performances, but that isn't a big factor for me, as I look to what he had done in his one Test before and there have been worse Test debuts then his (like Shane Warne taking 1/150+).

 

[KiWiNiNjA]

I don't mind Southee making his debut. You either got it or you don't. If he has a bad debut and suffers from it then he obviously doesn't have the mental strength.

Obvious connections can be drawn to Vettori's debut back in 97. Interesting to see that the bowling line-up that time was:

Doull
Allott
Cairns
Vettori
D. Patel

Apart from Cairns, not the most experienced of line-ups back then, but atleast he had the old head of Patel as a spin partner. Now 11 years later another teenager makes his debut against England with the line-up of:

Martin
Southee
Elliott
Vettori
J. Patel

Yet again, apart for Vettori, not the most experienced of line-ups, although you could say Martin is our main fast bowler and has experience. Questionable really.

Not the strongest of bowling line-ups by far. Having Oram there would have helped a bit. Nevertheless, it is a good chance for Southee to show what he is made of, and with only Martin ahead of him in the seam department, he certainly will get his chances.

 

[superkingdave]

Well annoying that Oram and Mills are out. Hope we don;t get a road

 

[NZTailender]

Hope we do tbh because without Mills and Oram I'm not exactly confident in our chances of taking 20 wickets.

 

[Blakey]

Road schmoad. It's gonna be affected by weather anyway.