**Official** England in New Zealand

[Goughy]

d. Winning the next Test match.

If the selectors genuinely believe the inclusion will improve the chances of winning and give the best attack then he should play.

Though, its seldom the case and a lot of guesswork (far more than usual) and, coaches getting desperate comes into play rather than the simple question 'What is our best side?'

 

[Cevno]

That's a great list Goughy. I am actually surprised India only has that many - I thought we had a few more. I wrote a very long post a while back analyzing all the young debutants from India, and how there was only one big success (SRT), and the rest were not only unsuccessful at the time, but most went on to have bad careers at the international level and were ordinary even at the FC level.

Don't ruin them early! Let them grow and learn what professional cricket means, how to prepare for a long season, how to keep fit, how to handle the stresses and responsibilities that come not only with adulthood, but with professional cricket overall.

Out of five indians on that list-
sachin has been a huge success.
Harbhajan was a succes until the last three years and if he had not bee selected then he would have probably got lost in indian domestic circui.
Chawla is to early to say anything about.
Ishant has only just started.
Parthiv patel was the only real faliure but know hw is again scoring big runs in the domestic circuit.
Btw, wasn't pathan a teenager when he debuted?

 

[StumpMic]

Teenagers in the subcontinent rarely succeed in international cricket! One of the biggest urban myths.

What's more, many of those supposedly teenagers on debut aren't, as there's no birth registration system in Pakistan, and that's where most of the supposedly 17\18-year-olds come from. Many of them are thought to be 21 or 22 in actuality.

I live in Pakistan and there is a birth registration system. We have birth certificates, identity cards and passports

 

[Richard]

Indeed? How does the case of numerous youngsters who are almost certainly thought to be older than their age happen then?

 

[BoyBrumby]

I live in Pakistan and there is a birth registration system. We have birth certificates, identity cards and passports

You'll have to excuse Richard. Ignorance of a topic is no bar on him making crass, sweeping statements.

 

[Craig]

Would Richard be a triple Gold Medalist if digging one self out of a hole was an Olympic sport?

 

[BoyBrumby]

Would Richard be a triple Gold Medalist if digging one self out of a hole was an Olympic sport?

"Dig up, stupid"

 

[Woodster]

I think with regards NZ's debuting of Southee and Elliott, it is quite exciting for NZ cricket to see two hungry inexperienced players making their Test bow, despite it not coming in the ideal situation. Certainly in Southee's case, where he is being predicted to make big waves for NZ, he could do with more cricket experience to prepare him better for the highest stage. However, with injuries to a number of bowlers, NZ have to go in with their strongest side to win the series, and if that includes Southee then I would have no problem in throwing him.

Where I feel NZ may struggle in this Test is their control with the ball. Both Oram and Mills have given Vettori control with their accurate spells, with those two missing, a huge amount of pressure falls on the two spinners to keep England's run rate down. That is not to say Southee or Elliott are not up to it, but it would be a heck of a lot to ask.

Still would have probably gone with Gillespie personally.

 

[Richard]

TBH, their success ratio may only better as they are essentially the only ones that do it.

This is a list of the players 18 or under on Test debut over the last 20 years.

One pattern is clear and that is the vast majority of young debutants are from the subcontinent. Also, that for supposedly super talented players that demand to be selected so early they are not particularly successful.

Apart from a couple of names, the majority are ordinary cricketers. In fact NZ may have the best record in converting young debuts to decent cricketers compared to anyone else on the list.

Apart from occasional 'once in a generation' players, selecting young teens is usually the preserve of the desperate.

Player		Age		Team		Opposition	Ground		Match Date	Scorecard
Tamim Iqbal	18y 290d	Bangladesh	v New Zealand	Dunedin		4-Jan-08	Test # 1859
Mushfiqur Rahim	16y 267d	Bangladesh	v England	Lord's		26-May-05	Test # 1751
Shahadat Hossain18y 292d	Bangladesh	v England	Lord's		6-May-05	Test # 1751
Nazmul Hossain	17y 73d		Bangladesh	v India		Chittagong (MAA)17-Dec-04	Test # 1727
Aftab Ahmed	18y 351d	Bangladesh	v New Zealand	Chittagong (MAA)26-Oct-04	Test # 1717
Nafees Iqbal	18y 354d	Bangladesh	v New Zealand	Dhaka		19-Oct-04	Test # 1715
Enamul Haque	16y 320d	Bangladesh	v England	Dhaka		21-Oct-03	Test # 1665
Anwar Hossain	18y 363d	Bangladesh	v West Indies	Dhaka		8-Dec-02	Test # 1630
Alok Kapali	18y 208d	Bangladesh	v Sri Lanka	Colombo (SSC)	28-Jul-02	Test # 1611
Tushar Imran	18y 220d	Bangladesh	v Sri Lanka	Colombo (SSC)	28-Jul-02	Test # 1611
Talha Jubair	16y 223d	Bangladesh	v Sri Lanka	Colombo (PSS)	21-Jul-02	Test # 1609
Mashrafe Mortaza18y 34d		Bangladesh	v Zimbabwe	Dhaka		8-Nov-01	Test # 1566
Mohammad Ashraful17y 61d	Bangladesh	v Sri Lanka	Colombo (SSC)	6-Sep-01	Test # 1561
Mohammad Sharif	15y 128d	Bangladesh	v Zimbabwe	Bulawayo	19-Apr-01	Test # 1543
Ranjan Das	18y 119d	Bangladesh	v India	Dhaka			10-Nov-00	Test # 1512
I Sharma	18y 265d	India		v Bangladesh	Dhaka (SBNS)	25-May-07	Test # 1833
Piyush Chawla	17y 75d		India		v England	Mohali		9-Mar-06	Test # 1788
PA Patel	17y 152d	India		v England	Nottingham	8-Aug-02	Test # 1612
Harbhajan Singh	17y 265d	India		v Australia	Bangalore	25-Mar-98	Test # 1413
SR Tendulkar	16y 205d	India		v Pakistan	Karachi		15-Nov-89	Test # 1127
DL Vettori	18y 10d		New Zealand	v England	Wellington	6-Feb-97	Test # 1354
Yasir Ali	17y 323d	Pakistan	v Bangladesh	Multan		3-Sep-03	Test # 1658
Salman Butt	18y 331d	Pakistan	v Bangladesh	Multan		3-Sep-03	Test # 1658
Imran Farhat	18y 292d	Pakistan	v New Zealand	Auckland	8-Mar-01	Test # 1533
Qaiser Abbas	18y 192d	Pakistan	v England	Lahore		15-Nov-00	Test # 1513
Irfan Fazil	18y 131d	Pakistan	v Sri Lanka	Karachi		12-Mar-00	Test # 1489
Imran Nazir	17y 78d		Pakistan	v Sri Lanka	Lahore		4-Mar-99	Test # 1447
Shahid Afridi	18y 235d	Pakistan	v Australia	Karachi		22-Oct-98	Test # 1427
Fazl-e-Akbar	17y 129d	Pakistan	v South Africa	Durban		26-Feb-98	Test # 1403
Hasan Raza	14y 227d	Pakistan	v Zimbabwe	Faisalabad	24-Oct-96	Test # 1337
Shahid Nazir	18y 318d	Pakistan	v Zimbabwe	Sheikhupura	17-Oct-96	Test # 1336
Shadab Kabir	18y 256d	Pakistan	v England	Lord's		25-Jul-96	Test # 1330
Saleem Elahi	18y 353d	Pakistan	v Australia	Brisbane	9-Nov-95	Test # 1311
Saqlain Mushtaq	18y 253d	Pakistan	v Sri Lanka	Peshawar	8-Sep-95	Test # 1304
Ata-ur-Rehman	17y 68d		Pakistan	v England	Birmingham	4-Jun-92	Test # 1189
Zahid Fazal	17y 5d		Pakistan	v West Indies	Karachi		15-Nov-90	Test # 1154
Aaqib Javed	16y 189d	Pakistan	v New Zealand	Wellington	10-Feb-89	Test # 1115
PR Adams	18y 340d	South Africa	v England	Port Elizabeth	26-Dec-95	Test # 1320
CM Bandara	18y 147d	Sri Lanka	v New Zealand	Colombo (RPS)	27-May-98	Test # 1415
DNT Zoysa	18y 298d	Sri Lanka	v New Zealand	Dunedin		7-Mar-97	Test # 1358
JE Taylor	18y 363d	West Indies	v Sri Lanka	Gros Islet	20-Jun-03	Test # 1648
AG Cremer	18y 109d	Zimbabwe	v Bangladesh	Chittagong (MAA)6-Jan-05	Test # 1733
E Chigumbura	18y 53d		Zimbabwe	v Sri Lanka	Harare		6-May-04	Test # 1698
BRM Taylor	18y 90d		Zimbabwe	v Sri Lanka	Harare		6-May-04	Test # 1698
T Panyangara	18y 198d	Zimbabwe	v Sri Lanka	Harare		6-May-04	Test # 1698
H Masakadza	17y 352d	Zimbabwe	v West Indies	Harare		27-Jul-01	Test # 1553
T Taibu		18y 66d		Zimbabwe	v West Indies	Bulawayo	19-Jul-01	Test # 1551
HK Olonga	18y 212d	Zimbabwe	v Pakistan	Harare		31-Jan-95	Test # 1285

The most interesting thing about that is how many are a) from substandard teams and b) from Pakistan. The overwhelming majority, in fact.

 

[Richard]

You'll have to excuse Richard. Ignorance of a topic is no bar on him making crass, sweeping statements.

Rubbish. If I have ignorance on this particular topic it's because I've been misinformed, simple as.

 

[Craig]

You'll have to excuse Richard. Ignorance of a topic is no bar on him making crass, sweeping statements.

IIRC wasn't there some doubt initially over Waqar Younis' actually birth date? Not sure how true that is, I read it in a book at least 5 or 6 years ago and how I still remember that I have no idea

 

[BoyBrumby]

Rubbish. If I have ignorance on this particular topic it's because I've been misinformed, simple as.

I'm sorry? Which part of my argument are you disagreeing with?

 

[Richard]

The bit about "making crass, sweeping statements". Which I wasn't doing. It certainly wasn't crass, for the reasons explained, and I don't really see how it was sweeping either.

 

[Craig]

And too think I was dumb enough to leave this site for Lent. It's like I've never left

 

[BoyBrumby]

The bit about "making crass, sweeping statements". Which I wasn't doing. It certainly wasn't crass, for the reasons explained, and I don't really see how it was sweeping either.

Teenagers in the subcontinent rarely succeed in international cricket! One of the biggest urban myths.

What's more, many of those supposedly teenagers on debut aren't, as there's no birth registration system in Pakistan, and that's where most of the supposedly 17\18-year-olds come from. Many of them are thought to be 21 or 22 in actuality.

Sounds pretty crass & sweeping to me. No qualifications, just a flat out statement.

 

[Richard]

It wasn't crass, because that's what I'd been led to believe. It wasn't really sweeping, either - it's a simple yes or no, there is or there isn't. I'd thought there wasn't; turns-out there is.

 

[TT Boy]

Indeed? How does the case of numerous youngsters who are almost certainly thought to be older than their age happen then?

Through the processes of 'Orientalism'.

 

[Goughy]

I think people are jumping on Richard a little too hard here. There is more than enough evidence to question the given debut ages of certain players.

As for Pakistani registration. It is currently tight. But it bares no reflection on 20-30 years ago when most of these guys will have been born.

 

[Laurrz]

hope we get a close match.. being the last and deciding one

will be interesting how young Southee goes

 

[Smudge]

Some very interesting comments on the Sky TV programme, "Cricket Company" from Dipak Patel, who has coached Southee at the under-19 World Cups. He said one thing Southee won't lack in is self-confidence (which backs up what I've heard about him being fairly arrogant - but that's not a bad thing in an elite sportsman). He also made a bold call or two about what Southee could become if he continued to work on his batting - the suggestion was made by Patel that he has the ability to be better than Chris Cairns overall. While that may need to be taken with a grain of salt, it's certainly a decent vote of confidence from ol' Six-Pack.